5 ms·

Many of those tweets contain direct threats of violence. They need to be reported to law enforcement, not flagged for Twitter to deal with. Also, it seems unus

by chroma 12y ago

Many of those tweets contain direct threats of violence. They need to be reported to law enforcement, not flagged for Twitter to deal with. Also, it seems unusual to hold Twitter responsible for their users' speech. UI tweaks may reduce the amount of hatred seen, but they are not going to solve this problem. Lastly, I spent some time perusing other posts on this blog. They are not furthering any discussion, to put it mildly. Likewise, I doubt the comments here will generate much light. It's a sad situation, but I don't think HN has much to contribute.

ds9 12y ago
When tweets contain obviously criminal threats, law enforcement ought to be able and willing to get whatever information Twitter has on the senders, at least when the target files a complaint, and prosecutors ought to follow up. How is this so easy in copyright cases and so hard in cases like this? If a few theoretical dollars in royalties count so much more than safety of innocent citizens, things really are upside down in favor of big money. I realize there are limited LE and prosecutorial resources, and they have to prioritize etc., but threats like these are prosecuted in "real world" cases all the time. And a few convictions in egregious cases (like this), reported in the news, would probably exert a civilizing effect on the lowlife of Twitter (maybe just motivating them to go elsewhere).
icebraining 12y ago
Many of those tweets contain direct threats of violence. They need to be reported to law enforcement, not flagged for Twitter to deal with. They're not mutually exclusive. Twitter should still take all reasonable steps to prevent abuse. I don't think HN has much to contribute. I completely agree; I cringe every time something vaguely related to feminism or gender equality is posted here. I'm not sure if I should flag it or not, though.
- clearly 12y ago
  I'm genuinely interested to hear you say that, why do you cringe? Because it doesn't affect you and you don't perceive there to be a problem? This is clearly a technology story, and I'm interested to hear more from anyone at Twitter how their release process works in this regard. I saw Kent Beck talk at facebook a while back and he spoke about how when working on a site like FB, you literally do have peoples lives in your hands. Releasing that software is a very hard problem. The example he gave was if they accidentally allowed public access to someones private mail- it could literally lead to deaths.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    I'm genuinely interested to hear you say that, why do you cringe? Because it doesn't affect you and you don't perceive there to be a problem? No, I cringe because I know there is a problem, and more sexism - which is rampant in these threads - doesn't help. HN as a whole is simply not capable of having a mature discussion about these topics.
    - MartinCron 12y ago
      I am hoping that with deliberate practice, HN will become capable of a mature discussion about these topics. It is important enough to keep trying, even though it is hard.
      - clearly 12y ago
        This
  - tomp 12y ago
    Because such stories are usually knee-jerk reactions, badly argumented, badly researched, un-objective, and assume some opinions that not everyone agrees with are facts. Furthermore, pointing this out can inspire rage and insults from a part of the online population. Finally, they induce a flame-war with no clear victors and no apparent benefits for the victors. They don't really encourage discussion, just as most static-dynamic do not.
- gaadd33 12y ago
  How can Twitter prevent people from posting abusive messages? Should they have some sort of keyword filter that prohibits specific words and regexs that match addresses?
  - icebraining 12y ago
    They can't prevent the initial abuse, of course, but they could, at the very least, think about the people who are affected by these attacks before making changes, instead of rolling back only after there's an outcry. Simple measures, such as banning a whole IP from contacting/following/mentioning the person who reported it, should help a lot. And if they want to allow comments from Tor and other proxies - and I think they should! -, they could allow users to block everyone using them from contacting/following/mentioning them. In general, they could give a damn, instead of just reacting to criticism.
- acdha 12y ago
  Flag it but after awhile, the moderators will prevent your account from flagging stories or comments.
- vajorie 12y ago
  > I cringe every time something vaguely related to feminism or gender equality is posted here. I'm not sure if I should flag it or not, though. Sarcasm? I mean, you just said you can't tolerate anything related to gender equality. Eeesh.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    No, I meant that I can't stand an HN discussion about those topics, because my experience is that it'll be filled with sexism and victim-blaming.
    - nemof 12y ago
      Exactly the reason that we need to keep on having these discussions. I frequently see some awfulness going on in these threads, but I also see people standing up to it and engaging in constructive discussion. We need to keep pushing this forwards. It benefits everyone.
mtrimpe 12y ago
Why could we not contribute? At it's core this is about the needs of a very small but important group of users not being addressed. It only took me a few minutes to think of various things we could do to aid them ranging from a UI more optimized for blocking and reporting; services to offer pre-filtering of comments. The one concrete thing that Twitter could do (and should do in my opinion) is helping actual criminal charges to be filed for hate speech (inciting to violence.) I'm still convinced that the only reason this persists is because the perpetrators believe, and so far they're right, that they will not be meaningfully punished for behaviour like this.
- pjc50 12y ago
  It's not even a small group of users, there's a lot of abuse about and for women it often takes a very nasty tone. There is occasionally legal action taken about tweets, but it's so rare and inconsistently applied that it manages to be a threat to free speech but not to actual abuse.
- hythloday 12y ago
  "Why could we not contribute?...It only took me a few minutes to think of various things" That is why we can't contribute.
peterwwillis 12y ago
What exactly do you expect law enforcement to do about hundreds (if not thousands) of threats of violence by anonymous people on the internet? An investigation into the IP address of each tweet? If she called law enforcement every time she got a threatening tweet or email, there's a good chance the cops would stop taking her seriously. They only have so many man-hours to dedicate to investigations like this, and each one takes a while. In the mean time, she's still subject to more abuse which strains her mental health even more. I wouldn't discount the possibility of serious self-harm in cases like these. While it would be nice if there were a streamlined process to report threats like these to the police, and a streamlined process for the police to investigate them, there's a more important action here: protecting innocent people. Twitter has the means and ability, and in my view should be a moral imperative, to keep people from harm if they can help it. Twitter can do more to protect people from hate speech and abusive language, which would greatly reduce the suffering of many people. We don't have to hold Twitter responsible for how their users treat others, but we do have to hold Twitter responsible for how they treat their users - which is to enable their abuse by other users. Can you imagine if ten Starbucks customers were verbally abusing one woman and the Starbucks employees did nothing? At the very least, Starbucks should be expected to call the police on behalf of the victim, just as Twitter should do. Sadly, we don't hold social media companies to the same moral standards as a coffee shop.
- digitalengineer 12y ago
  >by anonymous people on the internet... Made me smile.
- timje1 12y ago
  If I get provably burgled 50 times a month, I wouldn't expect the local police to stop taking me seriously. If anything, I'd expect them to streamline the process of investigating and prosecuting the crimes. If she was crying wolf multiple times, that's one thing - but the threats against her are undeniable.
  - tlrobinson 12y ago
    "the threats against her are undeniable" But are they credible? Someone could (and probably has) write a bot to make idle threats against dozens of feminists on a daily basis. Should the police investigate every one of them?
nemof 12y ago
to be clear, CCP (caroline criado-perez) has been reporting these threats to the police for months and months. Also, why shouldn't services be responsible for users using their service to abuse others? If you haven't heard of CCP before, you should take some time to read about the amount of abuse she's faced for campaigning on important women's issues over the last year or so. She's not just some random blogger, she's an important figure in the UK due to the campaigning she's done and the abuse she's received through twitter. This belongs on Hacker News exactly because it's about the intersection of Tech and human beings, and the lack of foresight which has allowed some of this abuse to occur. Startups should be paying attention to stories like this when they look to design services that are safe spaces that everyone can use without being abused or terrorised by other users.
- abrahamsen 12y ago
  > Also, why shouldn't services be responsible for users using their service to abuse others? Because I like Hacker News. If Hacker News was responsible for the posts of its users, it would not exist. The value it provides for Y Combinator would not match the risk. Also, email as we know it would not exist. The price of stamps would skyrocket as the postal service would need to hire people to read all letters in case they contained death threats. If any of the web services deserves common carrier protection, it would be twitter. Whenever something bad happens (like here), there will always be demands for more surveillance. More central control. These demands are just, the victims are real. And the solution exist. We could have a world with only a few highly curated and monitored for pay communication channels, where death threads plus anything else our governments want to keep out would be kept out. Anyone fighting that future are insensitive jerks unable to emphasize with the victims. Or can easily be portrayed that way. Righteous indignation comes with a price.
  - nemof 12y ago
    let's get something clear here, just because this kind of argument pops up all the time. Firstly compounding several different disparate services which differ vastly is completely silly. 1, hacker news IS responsible for the content that appears on it. If someone posts something that hacker news is legally obliged to remove, they will (not to mention we know that hacker news engages in hellbans etc). 2, email is a commonly used set of protocols, not a company product. You could think of the postal service in a similar way. They act more like dumb pipes, but email hosts differ from real world post in that they have an added responsibility to make sure they aren't used as spam relays. Twitter/hacker news etc are not dumb pipes. 3, in this paranoid tech world, women asking to be safe on social networks and the internet, and asking to be able to report abuse is equated to state spying and invasive surveillance, what the fuck. What the actual fuck. People just want to be able safely use the internet without having themselves threatened. > Anyone fighting that future are insensitive jerks If people are easily portrayed as having their foot in their mouth, there might be a reason for this. When you start conflating women's safety with state surveillance your foot is safely planted deep in your mouth. Perhaps, and I'm going out on a limb here, just perhaps, part of protecting against the tyranny of surveillance and invasive state practices might be making the internet a strong safe place for anyone, so governments don't step in and do it for us in a way we really dislike.

by chroma 12y ago

ds9 12y ago

When tweets contain obviously criminal threats, law enforcement ought to be able and willing to get whatever information Twitter has on the senders, at least when the target files a complaint, and prosecutors ought to follow up. How is this so easy in copyright cases and so hard in cases like this? If a few theoretical dollars in royalties count so much more than safety of innocent citizens, things really are upside down in favor of big money. I realize there are limited LE and prosecutorial resources, and they have to prioritize etc., but threats like these are prosecuted in "real world" cases all the time. And a few convictions in egregious cases (like this), reported in the news, would probably exert a civilizing effect on the lowlife of Twitter (maybe just motivating them to go elsewhere).

icebraining 12y ago

Many of those tweets contain direct threats of violence. They need to be reported to law enforcement, not flagged for Twitter to deal with. They're not mutually exclusive. Twitter should still take all reasonable steps to prevent abuse. I don't think HN has much to contribute. I completely agree; I cringe every time something vaguely related to feminism or gender equality is posted here. I'm not sure if I should flag it or not, though.

clearly 12y ago
I'm genuinely interested to hear you say that, why do you cringe? Because it doesn't affect you and you don't perceive there to be a problem? This is clearly a technology story, and I'm interested to hear more from anyone at Twitter how their release process works in this regard. I saw Kent Beck talk at facebook a while back and he spoke about how when working on a site like FB, you literally do have peoples lives in your hands. Releasing that software is a very hard problem. The example he gave was if they accidentally allowed public access to someones private mail- it could literally lead to deaths.
- icebraining 12y ago
  I'm genuinely interested to hear you say that, why do you cringe? Because it doesn't affect you and you don't perceive there to be a problem? No, I cringe because I know there is a problem, and more sexism - which is rampant in these threads - doesn't help. HN as a whole is simply not capable of having a mature discussion about these topics.
  - MartinCron 12y ago
    I am hoping that with deliberate practice, HN will become capable of a mature discussion about these topics. It is important enough to keep trying, even though it is hard.
    - clearly 12y ago
      This
- tomp 12y ago
  Because such stories are usually knee-jerk reactions, badly argumented, badly researched, un-objective, and assume some opinions that not everyone agrees with are facts. Furthermore, pointing this out can inspire rage and insults from a part of the online population. Finally, they induce a flame-war with no clear victors and no apparent benefits for the victors. They don't really encourage discussion, just as most static-dynamic do not.
gaadd33 12y ago
How can Twitter prevent people from posting abusive messages? Should they have some sort of keyword filter that prohibits specific words and regexs that match addresses?
- icebraining 12y ago
  They can't prevent the initial abuse, of course, but they could, at the very least, think about the people who are affected by these attacks before making changes, instead of rolling back only after there's an outcry. Simple measures, such as banning a whole IP from contacting/following/mentioning the person who reported it, should help a lot. And if they want to allow comments from Tor and other proxies - and I think they should! -, they could allow users to block everyone using them from contacting/following/mentioning them. In general, they could give a damn, instead of just reacting to criticism.
acdha 12y ago
Flag it but after awhile, the moderators will prevent your account from flagging stories or comments.
vajorie 12y ago
> I cringe every time something vaguely related to feminism or gender equality is posted here. I'm not sure if I should flag it or not, though. Sarcasm? I mean, you just said you can't tolerate anything related to gender equality. Eeesh.
- icebraining 12y ago
  No, I meant that I can't stand an HN discussion about those topics, because my experience is that it'll be filled with sexism and victim-blaming.
  - nemof 12y ago
    Exactly the reason that we need to keep on having these discussions. I frequently see some awfulness going on in these threads, but I also see people standing up to it and engaging in constructive discussion. We need to keep pushing this forwards. It benefits everyone.

mtrimpe 12y ago

Why could we not contribute? At it's core this is about the needs of a very small but important group of users not being addressed. It only took me a few minutes to think of various things we could do to aid them ranging from a UI more optimized for blocking and reporting; services to offer pre-filtering of comments. The one concrete thing that Twitter could do (and should do in my opinion) is helping actual criminal charges to be filed for hate speech (inciting to violence.) I'm still convinced that the only reason this persists is because the perpetrators believe, and so far they're right, that they will not be meaningfully punished for behaviour like this.

pjc50 12y ago
It's not even a small group of users, there's a lot of abuse about and for women it often takes a very nasty tone. There is occasionally legal action taken about tweets, but it's so rare and inconsistently applied that it manages to be a threat to free speech but not to actual abuse.
hythloday 12y ago
"Why could we not contribute?...It only took me a few minutes to think of various things" That is why we can't contribute.

peterwwillis 12y ago

What exactly do you expect law enforcement to do about hundreds (if not thousands) of threats of violence by anonymous people on the internet? An investigation into the IP address of each tweet? If she called law enforcement every time she got a threatening tweet or email, there's a good chance the cops would stop taking her seriously. They only have so many man-hours to dedicate to investigations like this, and each one takes a while. In the mean time, she's still subject to more abuse which strains her mental health even more. I wouldn't discount the possibility of serious self-harm in cases like these. While it would be nice if there were a streamlined process to report threats like these to the police, and a streamlined process for the police to investigate them, there's a more important action here: protecting innocent people. Twitter has the means and ability, and in my view should be a moral imperative, to keep people from harm if they can help it. Twitter can do more to protect people from hate speech and abusive language, which would greatly reduce the suffering of many people. We don't have to hold Twitter responsible for how their users treat others, but we do have to hold Twitter responsible for how they treat their users - which is to enable their abuse by other users. Can you imagine if ten Starbucks customers were verbally abusing one woman and the Starbucks employees did nothing? At the very least, Starbucks should be expected to call the police on behalf of the victim, just as Twitter should do. Sadly, we don't hold social media companies to the same moral standards as a coffee shop.

digitalengineer 12y ago
>by anonymous people on the internet... Made me smile.
timje1 12y ago
If I get provably burgled 50 times a month, I wouldn't expect the local police to stop taking me seriously. If anything, I'd expect them to streamline the process of investigating and prosecuting the crimes. If she was crying wolf multiple times, that's one thing - but the threats against her are undeniable.
- tlrobinson 12y ago
  "the threats against her are undeniable" But are they credible? Someone could (and probably has) write a bot to make idle threats against dozens of feminists on a daily basis. Should the police investigate every one of them?

nemof 12y ago

to be clear, CCP (caroline criado-perez) has been reporting these threats to the police for months and months. Also, why shouldn't services be responsible for users using their service to abuse others? If you haven't heard of CCP before, you should take some time to read about the amount of abuse she's faced for campaigning on important women's issues over the last year or so. She's not just some random blogger, she's an important figure in the UK due to the campaigning she's done and the abuse she's received through twitter. This belongs on Hacker News exactly because it's about the intersection of Tech and human beings, and the lack of foresight which has allowed some of this abuse to occur. Startups should be paying attention to stories like this when they look to design services that are safe spaces that everyone can use without being abused or terrorised by other users.

abrahamsen 12y ago
> Also, why shouldn't services be responsible for users using their service to abuse others? Because I like Hacker News. If Hacker News was responsible for the posts of its users, it would not exist. The value it provides for Y Combinator would not match the risk. Also, email as we know it would not exist. The price of stamps would skyrocket as the postal service would need to hire people to read all letters in case they contained death threats. If any of the web services deserves common carrier protection, it would be twitter. Whenever something bad happens (like here), there will always be demands for more surveillance. More central control. These demands are just, the victims are real. And the solution exist. We could have a world with only a few highly curated and monitored for pay communication channels, where death threads plus anything else our governments want to keep out would be kept out. Anyone fighting that future are insensitive jerks unable to emphasize with the victims. Or can easily be portrayed that way. Righteous indignation comes with a price.
- nemof 12y ago
  let's get something clear here, just because this kind of argument pops up all the time. Firstly compounding several different disparate services which differ vastly is completely silly. 1, hacker news IS responsible for the content that appears on it. If someone posts something that hacker news is legally obliged to remove, they will (not to mention we know that hacker news engages in hellbans etc). 2, email is a commonly used set of protocols, not a company product. You could think of the postal service in a similar way. They act more like dumb pipes, but email hosts differ from real world post in that they have an added responsibility to make sure they aren't used as spam relays. Twitter/hacker news etc are not dumb pipes. 3, in this paranoid tech world, women asking to be safe on social networks and the internet, and asking to be able to report abuse is equated to state spying and invasive surveillance, what the fuck. What the actual fuck. People just want to be able safely use the internet without having themselves threatened. > Anyone fighting that future are insensitive jerks If people are easily portrayed as having their foot in their mouth, there might be a reason for this. When you start conflating women's safety with state surveillance your foot is safely planted deep in your mouth. Perhaps, and I'm going out on a limb here, just perhaps, part of protecting against the tyranny of surveillance and invasive state practices might be making the internet a strong safe place for anyone, so governments don't step in and do it for us in a way we really dislike.