4 ms·

I can't believe I'm saying this at 28, but that's a really young-person point of view. You have to understand most of us younglings grew up with the Internet a

by adyus 12y ago

I can't believe I'm saying this at 28, but that's a really young-person point of view. You have to understand most of us younglings grew up with the Internet and have adopted text as the de facto mode of relaying information. Sadly, most of the business world is made up of people who've learned to communicate (in their formative years) before the Internet was a thing. These business people cannot easily change their main mode of communication, and will have a hard time adopting email the way a newer generation has. The generation following you (and me) has already moved past email, to instant messaging.

rabbyte 12y ago
The finer point to me is that sometimes there are perfectly valid reasons you wouldn't want to express yourself by email or online and I don't think that has anything to do with age. We have evolved to understand face-to-face communication. It's an effective way to relay a thought. People can waste your time through any media.
- adyus 12y ago
  That's a good point. We still require and enjoy direct interaction, as well we should. However, as "multitasking" becomes more popular, the ability to communicate asynchronously becomes more important. Of course important things should be discussed face to face (not by phone or webcam either), but meetings should not always be confused with actual work.
- greenyoda 12y ago
  "People can waste your time through any media." That's true, but it's much easier to cut your losses with an e-mail than with a face to face conversation. If, after reading the first couple of sentences of an e-mail, you decide that the sender is an idiot and reading his message is a waste of time, you can just hit delete (or reply, "Sorry, not interested") and move on to the next thing. However, if you've agreed to meet with somebody, and thirty seconds into the meeting you've come to the same conclusion, most people would be too polite to ruthlessly tell the person to their face that the meeting is pointless, and then get up and leave. (Also, if the meeting is not in your own office, you'll have expended time just to get there.) This is even true of a phone call: most people are too polite to hang up on someone, except maybe a telemarketer. If someone wants me to make time to meet with them in person, they should be able to clearly express the purpose of the meeting in a few lines of text beforehand.
PeterWhittaker 12y ago
I can't believe I'm saying this at 28, but that's a really young-person point of view. I'm 48 and disagree with you completely. Email is long-form written communication - which we've been doing for hundreds of years (letters, essays, books, and much more recently, email). We (my generation, the ones before, and the one or two immediately after) grew up with long-form written communication. I've long been of the opinion that telephone conversations have no place for serious ideas, because they are conversational, because they are mostly made up on the spot. Serious ideas (business proposals, scientific research, system and software design, novels) require long-form written communication because it forces you to think, to organize, and to express clearly. Email - and Usenet and modern fora such as this one - can be used effectively for this same long-form written communication. The generations I am concerned about are those that grew up with PowerPoint and SMS and Twitter: These media favour catchphrases, sound bites, etc. Yes, there have always been these - but once upon a time they were a specialization that required thought. Witness copywriting and Churchill's famous comment about prepping a two minute speech. More recently, these became the de facto standard, legitimizing the sound bite conversations of a great many second rate thinkers and managers. The long-form business plan, long-form business communication of any kind, has slowly dwindled, replaced with bullet speak and now tweet. I would argue that the opinion expressed in the original article is in fact the oldest of old-school ideas: If you cannot take the time to think through what you are trying to say and compose a meaningful email, then I will use that as a first-pass filter and remove you from my overloaded queue. If you cannot take the time, you are not worth my time. Most of the time. Yes, email can and often is used for bullets and tweets. Sometimes that's appropriate. That's one of the things I like about email: It is largely content and length agnostic. I am very much relieved to know that the preference for long-form remains alive and well, even if somewhat hidden. Bullets and tweets and soundbites will grab attention, which can be fine, but will generally fade. Except for those very few well-crafted sentences of lasting impact. I would guess that the proportion of lasting impact to total expression in long-form is much greater than short-form for two simple reasons: There is far less of the former and its overall quality is simply higher on average, and there is much of the latter with so much noise and so little signal.
- adyus 12y ago
  At last, some good debate :) You're right that long-form as a means of communicating complex, impactful ideas won't go away. However, you are assuming that the average audience tends toward the ideal (being on HN for a while certainly influences that assumption). In my short experience, I found that most people outside HN can easier express their thoughts and ideas on the spot, and will rarely take the time needed to craft a thoughtful long-form missive. This doesn't necessarily mean that their ideas are not worth our time. It does, however, point toward a less than ideal conversation partner and to future communication issues. Although we'd all love to live in a world where communication is held to the highest standards, we have to adapt to what's available (within reason), even if that brings us down to bullet speak, Top 10 lists and click-bait titles. How else will we find a broader audience for our messages? Your last point on lasting impact is, however, valid. I can't remember the last time I've re-read a tweet, but I constantly refer to old emails for clarification.

by adyus 12y ago

rabbyte 12y ago

The finer point to me is that sometimes there are perfectly valid reasons you wouldn't want to express yourself by email or online and I don't think that has anything to do with age. We have evolved to understand face-to-face communication. It's an effective way to relay a thought. People can waste your time through any media.

adyus 12y ago
That's a good point. We still require and enjoy direct interaction, as well we should. However, as "multitasking" becomes more popular, the ability to communicate asynchronously becomes more important. Of course important things should be discussed face to face (not by phone or webcam either), but meetings should not always be confused with actual work.
greenyoda 12y ago
"People can waste your time through any media." That's true, but it's much easier to cut your losses with an e-mail than with a face to face conversation. If, after reading the first couple of sentences of an e-mail, you decide that the sender is an idiot and reading his message is a waste of time, you can just hit delete (or reply, "Sorry, not interested") and move on to the next thing. However, if you've agreed to meet with somebody, and thirty seconds into the meeting you've come to the same conclusion, most people would be too polite to ruthlessly tell the person to their face that the meeting is pointless, and then get up and leave. (Also, if the meeting is not in your own office, you'll have expended time just to get there.) This is even true of a phone call: most people are too polite to hang up on someone, except maybe a telemarketer. If someone wants me to make time to meet with them in person, they should be able to clearly express the purpose of the meeting in a few lines of text beforehand.

PeterWhittaker 12y ago

I can't believe I'm saying this at 28, but that's a really young-person point of view. I'm 48 and disagree with you completely. Email is long-form written communication - which we've been doing for hundreds of years (letters, essays, books, and much more recently, email). We (my generation, the ones before, and the one or two immediately after) grew up with long-form written communication. I've long been of the opinion that telephone conversations have no place for serious ideas, because they are conversational, because they are mostly made up on the spot. Serious ideas (business proposals, scientific research, system and software design, novels) require long-form written communication because it forces you to think, to organize, and to express clearly. Email - and Usenet and modern fora such as this one - can be used effectively for this same long-form written communication. The generations I am concerned about are those that grew up with PowerPoint and SMS and Twitter: These media favour catchphrases, sound bites, etc. Yes, there have always been these - but once upon a time they were a specialization that required thought. Witness copywriting and Churchill's famous comment about prepping a two minute speech. More recently, these became the de facto standard, legitimizing the sound bite conversations of a great many second rate thinkers and managers. The long-form business plan, long-form business communication of any kind, has slowly dwindled, replaced with bullet speak and now tweet. I would argue that the opinion expressed in the original article is in fact the oldest of old-school ideas: If you cannot take the time to think through what you are trying to say and compose a meaningful email, then I will use that as a first-pass filter and remove you from my overloaded queue. If you cannot take the time, you are not worth my time. Most of the time. Yes, email can and often is used for bullets and tweets. Sometimes that's appropriate. That's one of the things I like about email: It is largely content and length agnostic. I am very much relieved to know that the preference for long-form remains alive and well, even if somewhat hidden. Bullets and tweets and soundbites will grab attention, which can be fine, but will generally fade. Except for those very few well-crafted sentences of lasting impact. I would guess that the proportion of lasting impact to total expression in long-form is much greater than short-form for two simple reasons: There is far less of the former and its overall quality is simply higher on average, and there is much of the latter with so much noise and so little signal.

adyus 12y ago
At last, some good debate :) You're right that long-form as a means of communicating complex, impactful ideas won't go away. However, you are assuming that the average audience tends toward the ideal (being on HN for a while certainly influences that assumption). In my short experience, I found that most people outside HN can easier express their thoughts and ideas on the spot, and will rarely take the time needed to craft a thoughtful long-form missive. This doesn't necessarily mean that their ideas are not worth our time. It does, however, point toward a less than ideal conversation partner and to future communication issues. Although we'd all love to live in a world where communication is held to the highest standards, we have to adapt to what's available (within reason), even if that brings us down to bullet speak, Top 10 lists and click-bait titles. How else will we find a broader audience for our messages? Your last point on lasting impact is, however, valid. I can't remember the last time I've re-read a tweet, but I constantly refer to old emails for clarification.