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> Somehow, even with a long and complex history of involvement in the region, we magically have no responsibility for any of wha is happening, save for being fr
by mpyne 12y ago
> Somehow, even with a long and complex history of involvement in the region, we magically have no responsibility for any of wha is happening, save for being free and not Muslim. I find that absolutely incredible and profoundly myopic.
U.S. history is not at long as you think, nor as one-sided as you might think. Such history as does exist is due only because the British decided that they could no longer maintain any regional presence in the Middle East with their other Cold War commitments. Sure, you have your 1948 counter-coup in Iran (who are, notably, mostly the opposite sect of Islam than the ones we're talking about in this thread). But there's also the 1956 U.S. invention in favor of Nasser in Egypt that everyone conveniently forgets to mention when they're talking about U.S. meddling in Muslim affairs, to speak nothing of the very Bosnia case I noted in my last comment.
But U.S. involvement in the Middle East was limited otherwise for a long time precisely because there was a strong Iran allied to the West. It wasn't until the Shah fell for good in 1979 that you saw the Carter Doctrine and the invitation for American presence from Gulf states worried about their ability to export oil.
What I find to be incredibly myopic is the idea that if someone, anyone, has a problem with a group, that it is the group's responsibility and even fault.
You could give in and do what they ask for as long as you like, but you'll find at least two things are true: 1) Their demands are rhetoric, not their actual key fault with you (as proven with Bosnia and U.S. support for Afghanistan 1979-1989), and 2) you'll simply "radicalize" some other group who would be put at risk by a worldwide Caliphate.
> Shouldn't we be openly discussing what it means and how we might work to not radicalize members of that community?
Sure. People are. I don't understand why you keep asking why people aren't doing something that's actually being done. President Obama's speech at NDU in May 2013 made almost precisely the same point, and I assure you it's not because the President just had a whim that day.
I certainly hope you don't get all your news about U.S. and the West's foreign policy from HN (or God forbid, cable news), as otherwise I'm at a loss to explain where you get this impression from. The discussion is going on, but you do how to go try to find it, it's not like it's happening in the "To the Editor" section of the New York Times.
But as long as people keep giving credence to the idea that even perceived slights committed by some amorphous politico-cultural nexus are legitimate bases for terrorist retaliation, then I'm not sure what you expect for corrective action.
The way to fix that might be to help educate the masses of people who act as the best recruiting base for Islamist and other extremists, but good luck doing that without scaling up to something even worse than an occupation like Afghanistan's. As it stands now, Islamists control the educational apparatus at these places and they have no incentive whatsoever to teach their youth anything other than that the U.S. and the West are evil, whether it's true or not.
- unclebucknasty 12y ago>U.S. history is not at long as you think, nor as one-sided as you might think Well, I'm pretty sure it's about as long as I think. But, admittedly, it may not be as long as you think I think. :) The salient point is that there is a history, it is complex, and it is reasonable to consider that it is significantly responsible for disdainful sentiments toward the West. I'm not sure that's in dispute anywhere. Also, note that I frequently reference the West and not just the U.S. But, really, I think the history lesson itself doesn't really address my point, which is precisely that such historical discussions are not a part of our (the public's) reckoning with regard to the symptomatic issues with which we are dealing. I know you've expressed bewilderment at that statement, but your reasoning for that bewilderment is, effectively, that the history is known and has been discussed somewhere by someone (even Obama). We agree there, though the degree of causality for everything that we are seeing is arguable. In any case, where we really differ is simply that my view is that such discussions should not just be somewhere between someone, but should absolutely dominate the public discourse. Instead, it is largely absent from the public arena, which really provides cover for policymakers to push through agendas that are orthogonal to solving the real problem, and instead serve other interests. Here, they have moved the goalposts from solving the problem to providing the public with a set of false choices based on the foregone assumption that the problem is well-defined somewhere and otherwise unsolvable. So, the question is allowed to become not "why do they want to kill us?", but "how much power should the government have in invading our privacy?" At some point, the causal element is so far divorced from the symptomolagy, that any real relationship between the choices we're making and the actual problem is only illusory. You say I shouldn't look to cable, HN, etc., but should instead presumably be pulling from Foreign Affairs, history books, etc. I say that's the problem I'm describing. I mean, an NDU speech? Should we really be content with confining the discussion to channels such as these? If so, then why is it reasonable to have a discussion about our liberties (e.g. Snowden, etc.) via the various public media, but not one about why such a discussion is neccessary in the first place? Because, that's the problem that I'm identifying and, by suggesting that I turn to more esoteric channels, you're basically acknowledging the problem and responding that such public discussion is not only missing, but should be missing. So, I suppose the obvious question is why--in your view--is it OK that it's missing from the wider public arena?