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I appreciate your thoughtful response and I have, in fact, heard this mentioned over the years. I am not sure that it is entirely accepted as the rationale (and

I appreciate your thoughtful response and I have, in fact, heard this mentioned over the years. I am not sure that it is entirely accepted as the rationale (and, in fact, it has been disputed by some), but it has certainly be suggested. I should probably have been clearer in my initial question. While there has been some discussion about in different circles regarding the genesis of this "problem", it has largely been muted. At a minimum, the volume and quality of earnest discussion has been remarkably limited relative to the importance of such discussion. Instead, we get pablum such as "they hate us for our freedom", even while we drone strike, destroy, and kill. Remarkably, the theory that you repeated fits with this pablum as it puts virtually no emphasis on our actions, save for a passing mention or two. Somehow, even with a long and complex history of involvement in the region, we magically have no responsibility for any of wha is happening, save for being free and not Muslim. I find that absolutely incredible and profoundly myopic. Still, even if one can somehow remove the notion of consequences for previous behavior as a cause of 9/11 and what preceeded, and also manage to detach all responsibility from the West, there should be little doubt that our current course of action (yes, including drone strikes), provides indisputable cause for real grievances borne of our actions and, potentially, a generation of terrorists that modern history has yet to see. Or, to put it in your terms, unless the goal is to kill every single Muslim or sympathizer who could have either answered the call for the Caliphate or been affected by the loss of a loved one who was presumed to have done such, then it seems that our current course is either exceptionally stupid or specifically designed to create perpetual conflict. But, back to my original point: all of this that we are discussing here is incredibly important and lurks beneath the surface. It has brought us down this path of surveillance, etc., yet it is not questioned or discussed. Think of how fantastically stupid it is that we are in such a reactionary mode that we no longer question key assumptions regarding why we are doing what we are doing in the first place. Even if you believed that it's all about the Caliphate, shouldn't that single word be part of our daily discusion for as long as we ar at war, drone striking, and spying on Americans? Shouldn't we be openly discussing what it means and how we might work to not radicalize members of that community? Shouldn't there be a sober assesment of Western policy and how it might intersect with legitimate complaints and even radical ideas? This, instead of an attitude that "they hate us for our freedom", followed by more drone strikes, spying on Americans, etc.? Apologies for length. Just hoping to better make my point.

mpyne 13y ago
> Somehow, even with a long and complex history of involvement in the region, we magically have no responsibility for any of wha is happening, save for being free and not Muslim. I find that absolutely incredible and profoundly myopic. U.S. history is not at long as you think, nor as one-sided as you might think. Such history as does exist is due only because the British decided that they could no longer maintain any regional presence in the Middle East with their other Cold War commitments. Sure, you have your 1948 counter-coup in Iran (who are, notably, mostly the opposite sect of Islam than the ones we're talking about in this thread). But there's also the 1956 U.S. invention in favor of Nasser in Egypt that everyone conveniently forgets to mention when they're talking about U.S. meddling in Muslim affairs, to speak nothing of the very Bosnia case I noted in my last comment. But U.S. involvement in the Middle East was limited otherwise for a long time precisely because there was a strong Iran allied to the West. It wasn't until the Shah fell for good in 1979 that you saw the Carter Doctrine and the invitation for American presence from Gulf states worried about their ability to export oil. What I find to be incredibly myopic is the idea that if someone, anyone, has a problem with a group, that it is the group's responsibility and even fault. You could give in and do what they ask for as long as you like, but you'll find at least two things are true: 1) Their demands are rhetoric, not their actual key fault with you (as proven with Bosnia and U.S. support for Afghanistan 1979-1989), and 2) you'll simply "radicalize" some other group who would be put at risk by a worldwide Caliphate. > Shouldn't we be openly discussing what it means and how we might work to not radicalize members of that community? Sure. People are. I don't understand why you keep asking why people aren't doing something that's actually being done. President Obama's speech at NDU in May 2013 made almost precisely the same point, and I assure you it's not because the President just had a whim that day. I certainly hope you don't get all your news about U.S. and the West's foreign policy from HN (or God forbid, cable news), as otherwise I'm at a loss to explain where you get this impression from. The discussion is going on, but you do how to go try to find it, it's not like it's happening in the "To the Editor" section of the New York Times. But as long as people keep giving credence to the idea that even perceived slights committed by some amorphous politico-cultural nexus are legitimate bases for terrorist retaliation, then I'm not sure what you expect for corrective action. The way to fix that might be to help educate the masses of people who act as the best recruiting base for Islamist and other extremists, but good luck doing that without scaling up to something even worse than an occupation like Afghanistan's. As it stands now, Islamists control the educational apparatus at these places and they have no incentive whatsoever to teach their youth anything other than that the U.S. and the West are evil, whether it's true or not.

mpyne 13y ago

> Somehow, even with a long and complex history of involvement in the region, we magically have no responsibility for any of wha is happening, save for being free and not Muslim. I find that absolutely incredible and profoundly myopic. U.S. history is not at long as you think, nor as one-sided as you might think. Such history as does exist is due only because the British decided that they could no longer maintain any regional presence in the Middle East with their other Cold War commitments. Sure, you have your 1948 counter-coup in Iran (who are, notably, mostly the opposite sect of Islam than the ones we're talking about in this thread). But there's also the 1956 U.S. invention in favor of Nasser in Egypt that everyone conveniently forgets to mention when they're talking about U.S. meddling in Muslim affairs, to speak nothing of the very Bosnia case I noted in my last comment. But U.S. involvement in the Middle East was limited otherwise for a long time precisely because there was a strong Iran allied to the West. It wasn't until the Shah fell for good in 1979 that you saw the Carter Doctrine and the invitation for American presence from Gulf states worried about their ability to export oil. What I find to be incredibly myopic is the idea that if someone, anyone, has a problem with a group, that it is the group's responsibility and even fault. You could give in and do what they ask for as long as you like, but you'll find at least two things are true: 1) Their demands are rhetoric, not their actual key fault with you (as proven with Bosnia and U.S. support for Afghanistan 1979-1989), and 2) you'll simply "radicalize" some other group who would be put at risk by a worldwide Caliphate. > Shouldn't we be openly discussing what it means and how we might work to not radicalize members of that community? Sure. People are. I don't understand why you keep asking why people aren't doing something that's actually being done. President Obama's speech at NDU in May 2013 made almost precisely the same point, and I assure you it's not because the President just had a whim that day. I certainly hope you don't get all your news about U.S. and the West's foreign policy from HN (or God forbid, cable news), as otherwise I'm at a loss to explain where you get this impression from. The discussion is going on, but you do how to go try to find it, it's not like it's happening in the "To the Editor" section of the New York Times. But as long as people keep giving credence to the idea that even perceived slights committed by some amorphous politico-cultural nexus are legitimate bases for terrorist retaliation, then I'm not sure what you expect for corrective action. The way to fix that might be to help educate the masses of people who act as the best recruiting base for Islamist and other extremists, but good luck doing that without scaling up to something even worse than an occupation like Afghanistan's. As it stands now, Islamists control the educational apparatus at these places and they have no incentive whatsoever to teach their youth anything other than that the U.S. and the West are evil, whether it's true or not.