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> Voluntary giving and charity and voluntary communal groups could easily grow. The notion that taxes are the only way to spread wealth is flawed. Except now

by chasing 12y ago

> Voluntary giving and charity and voluntary communal groups could easily grow. The notion that taxes are the only way to spread wealth is flawed. Except now you've created a situation where only the wealthy get to choose society's direction. We need taxes so that even those without financial resources can have a say in what our collective money funds. This is made even more extreme if only a small part of the population is doing work with immediate financial reward.

Artistry121 12y ago
You've actually created a situation where only those who provide value to others get to choose society's direction - and only in non-coercive ways. Thought leaders, religious leaders and other individuals can all have power as well - although non-violent power. In a heavy tax-scenario those who get to choose society's direction can do so with military level force and attain power through politics and favor trading unrestricted by limits of the law (i.e. they can rewrite the laws). Also, those with influence can influence the law and write favorable, coercive, policies for themselves (as evidenced by the banking crisis and bailouts and current low interest rate environment). Here is a list of current expenditures by the financial industry on lawmakers: http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=F&cycle=2014&recipdetail=A&sortorder=U http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=F&cycle... Either way someone accumulates wealth - in one case its through forced redistribution (which will benefit a specific class, and which is unlikely to be the class that doesn't have the funds to contribute to politicians) and in once case is through voluntary redistribution. Dr. Dre gets to be a billionaire because people want to give him money in exchange for his music and social cred and Steve Jobs gets to be a billionaire because people want to give him money for his company's technology. Taxes and regulations are needed in some cases - but the more power they get the more people will attempt to use them for anticompetitive purposes. 1000s of banks shut down during the financial crisis - but the worst offenders got cheap loans to make record profits in the succeeding years. It would be nice to think a central authority can have our best interests in minds. That central authority has killed more civilians than combatants in current wars: https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ And the first lady and President openly pronounce disgust with Boko Haram while ordering airstrikes and military actions that have directly caused the deaths of far more children and left more than half of Iraqi children orphans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/meast/yemen-u-s-drone-wedding/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/meast/yemen-u-s-drone-we... (Notice US Officials declined to comment on actions they could have prevented - but are more than willing to comment on crimes in other countries far beyond their jurisdiction) On the "home front" non-violent and non-lying offenders in prison account for nearly 60% of incarcerated because violence has been used to punish these crimes of choice rather than social stigmas and education.
- chasing 12y ago
  > You've actually created a situation where only those who provide value to others get to choose society's direction... "Providing value to others" does not necessarily equal "Earning enough money to be able to give away significant amounts voluntarily." Plenty of people are wildly underpaid given their contribution to society.
  - grinnbearit 12y ago
    As yummyfajitas says, marginal utility not overall value. The first superman in Metropolis can charge a huge amount for his services, the second, perhaps half that. Every subsequent superman will add less utility to Metropolis and be paid less. Every Superman is paid an amount equivalent to his marginal utility to Metropolis.
  - waps 12y ago
    Plus this was effectively the situation for several centuries. So we know perfectly well what happens. It is decidedly different from equality for all. But it goes back to the basic motivation for everything. People are motivated by one of two things : political goals (promoting something, can be themselves, but that just makes it a small goal, not non-political), or economic goals. The problem is that today, the economy, if left 100% to it's own devices would probably kill somewhere north of 50% of the human population for being an economic net-negative. The problem with political motivations ... we all know that one.

by chasing 12y ago

Artistry121 12y ago

You've actually created a situation where only those who provide value to others get to choose society's direction - and only in non-coercive ways. Thought leaders, religious leaders and other individuals can all have power as well - although non-violent power. In a heavy tax-scenario those who get to choose society's direction can do so with military level force and attain power through politics and favor trading unrestricted by limits of the law (i.e. they can rewrite the laws). Also, those with influence can influence the law and write favorable, coercive, policies for themselves (as evidenced by the banking crisis and bailouts and current low interest rate environment). Here is a list of current expenditures by the financial industry on lawmakers: http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=F&cycle=2014&recipdetail=A&sortorder=U http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?ind=F&cycle... Either way someone accumulates wealth - in one case its through forced redistribution (which will benefit a specific class, and which is unlikely to be the class that doesn't have the funds to contribute to politicians) and in once case is through voluntary redistribution. Dr. Dre gets to be a billionaire because people want to give him money in exchange for his music and social cred and Steve Jobs gets to be a billionaire because people want to give him money for his company's technology. Taxes and regulations are needed in some cases - but the more power they get the more people will attempt to use them for anticompetitive purposes. 1000s of banks shut down during the financial crisis - but the worst offenders got cheap loans to make record profits in the succeeding years. It would be nice to think a central authority can have our best interests in minds. That central authority has killed more civilians than combatants in current wars: https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ And the first lady and President openly pronounce disgust with Boko Haram while ordering airstrikes and military actions that have directly caused the deaths of far more children and left more than half of Iraqi children orphans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/meast/yemen-u-s-drone-wedding/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/meast/yemen-u-s-drone-we... (Notice US Officials declined to comment on actions they could have prevented - but are more than willing to comment on crimes in other countries far beyond their jurisdiction) On the "home front" non-violent and non-lying offenders in prison account for nearly 60% of incarcerated because violence has been used to punish these crimes of choice rather than social stigmas and education.

chasing 12y ago
> You've actually created a situation where only those who provide value to others get to choose society's direction... "Providing value to others" does not necessarily equal "Earning enough money to be able to give away significant amounts voluntarily." Plenty of people are wildly underpaid given their contribution to society.
- grinnbearit 12y ago
  As yummyfajitas says, marginal utility not overall value. The first superman in Metropolis can charge a huge amount for his services, the second, perhaps half that. Every subsequent superman will add less utility to Metropolis and be paid less. Every Superman is paid an amount equivalent to his marginal utility to Metropolis.
- waps 12y ago
  Plus this was effectively the situation for several centuries. So we know perfectly well what happens. It is decidedly different from equality for all. But it goes back to the basic motivation for everything. People are motivated by one of two things : political goals (promoting something, can be themselves, but that just makes it a small goal, not non-political), or economic goals. The problem is that today, the economy, if left 100% to it's own devices would probably kill somewhere north of 50% of the human population for being an economic net-negative. The problem with political motivations ... we all know that one.