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How do you feel about filing complaints against cops for, say, beating up arrestees? What about taking bribes? Oh, there's no question: I love being beaten by

How do you feel about filing complaints against cops for, say, beating up arrestees? What about taking bribes? Oh, there's no question: I love being beaten by police officers! And bribery is good for the soul, don't you think? Seriously though, using HN as a way of organizing large numbers of people to action against specific employees is probably stepping a bit too far. That's almost the very definition of an internet witchhunt. Getting these people fired won't fix the underlying problems.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
> Oh, there's no question: I love being beaten by police officers! And bribery is good for the soul, don't you think? Sure, I picked a favorable example. I go on to directly ask you about the analogy: If reporting a cop for taking bribes is OK, why is reporting a patent examiner for awarding a patent in the face of prior art bad? Do you have a response? > Getting these people fired won't fix the underlying problems I'd say that depends on how many people get fired. If the effort to throw them out persists, the patent office will change. Getting one person fired, calling it a victory, and going home is unlikely to fix any underlying problems.
- cinquemb 13y ago
  >I'd say that depends on how many people get fired. If the effort to throw them out persists, the patent office will change. Makes you wonder when someone will throw up a crowd-sourcing website that tracks patent examiners where people can submit/link to questionable patents they awarded and upvote/down vote to get some kind of consensus. I also wonder if people would really care enough to take part in something like that.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    Ask Patents seems to be active enough: http://patents.stackexchange.com/ http://patents.stackexchange.com/ I guess they aren't interested in focusing on individuals though. It's funny how branding works, I searched for "patent overflow" to find the site.
    - cinquemb 13y ago
      Aghh, that completely slipped my mind. I agree that it's very interesting, and its probably very telling as to the group of people that is probably going to be best equipped to addressing the problem without having to hack away at traditional means that have thus proven themselves highly ineffective/slow moving at this point. I think that means there is probably going to be a subset of that audience that would participate in something like that but with more focus on individuals and pressuring the patent office to act through some means (email,tax,phone calls, transparency on a systemic issue with some data). I guess this could be a spin on civic engagement.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
I'd agree that HN isn't the place generalized advocacy and that the same should be actively discouraged if it happens more than rarely, but, for specific cases such as this one, HN users have a relevant and appropriate interest. Technology patents directly affect HN users' lives and businesses. Furthermore, HN users are particularly well-suited to have educated and well-informed opinions on this particular matter; much more so than most of the general public. It is such an obscure area that interested parties cannot reasonably expect the general public to properly protect their interests. So, if not here on HN, then where?
- nitrogen 13y ago
  * So, if not here on HN, then where?* If you are referring to a vindictive mob singling out a low-ranking individual for mob justice, nowhere. That's about as far from the hacker ethos and the principles of a functional society as one can get.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >If you are referring to a vindictive mob singling out a low-ranking individual for mob justice, nowhere. It sounds really terrible when you say it like that.
    - tripzilch 13y ago
      Well, if it wasn't for all the people in this thread valiantly defending the status quo, we'd be about this close to literally burning some innocent individual at the stake. That's certainly worth a few frivolous patents, don't you think?
tripzilch 13y ago
> That's almost the very definition of an internet witchhunt. Apart from the two defining factors of a witch hunt: (1) irrational (2) assumption of guilt. I'll grant you the "Internet" part, though. > Getting these people fired won't fix the underlying problems. Arguing against taking action is almost guaranteed to let these problems fester and get worse for almost everybody except those very few who are profiting from the situation right now (the ones that you are trying to protect from an imaginary witch hunt, a currently non-existent situation). Then there's of course evoking the medieval imagery of torture, stake burning and death. Which is maybe appropriate as long as you're actually talking about e.g. the old 4chan (and similar) style "Internet witch hunts", mob justice, personal harassment and bullying. But it is nothing short of disingenuous when referring to people taking action and filing complaints when they notice someone doing a bad job in a high position of power. Even if those complaints may result in more than just a slap on the wrist (which seems like a likely outcome, anyway). The fact that people notice this as a group or a community doesn't make it a "witch hunt". And arguing to not do anything just because a lot of people are aware of it, is really quite silly, counter intuitive or counter productive (however you want to call it). I'd be right with you if there was any suggestion remotely like a 21st century equivalent of stake-burning or mob justice, but there isn't.

thaumasiotes 13y ago

> Oh, there's no question: I love being beaten by police officers! And bribery is good for the soul, don't you think? Sure, I picked a favorable example. I go on to directly ask you about the analogy: If reporting a cop for taking bribes is OK, why is reporting a patent examiner for awarding a patent in the face of prior art bad? Do you have a response? > Getting these people fired won't fix the underlying problems I'd say that depends on how many people get fired. If the effort to throw them out persists, the patent office will change. Getting one person fired, calling it a victory, and going home is unlikely to fix any underlying problems.

cinquemb 13y ago
>I'd say that depends on how many people get fired. If the effort to throw them out persists, the patent office will change. Makes you wonder when someone will throw up a crowd-sourcing website that tracks patent examiners where people can submit/link to questionable patents they awarded and upvote/down vote to get some kind of consensus. I also wonder if people would really care enough to take part in something like that.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  Ask Patents seems to be active enough: http://patents.stackexchange.com/ http://patents.stackexchange.com/ I guess they aren't interested in focusing on individuals though. It's funny how branding works, I searched for "patent overflow" to find the site.
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    Aghh, that completely slipped my mind. I agree that it's very interesting, and its probably very telling as to the group of people that is probably going to be best equipped to addressing the problem without having to hack away at traditional means that have thus proven themselves highly ineffective/slow moving at this point. I think that means there is probably going to be a subset of that audience that would participate in something like that but with more focus on individuals and pressuring the patent office to act through some means (email,tax,phone calls, transparency on a systemic issue with some data). I guess this could be a spin on civic engagement.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

I'd agree that HN isn't the place generalized advocacy and that the same should be actively discouraged if it happens more than rarely, but, for specific cases such as this one, HN users have a relevant and appropriate interest. Technology patents directly affect HN users' lives and businesses. Furthermore, HN users are particularly well-suited to have educated and well-informed opinions on this particular matter; much more so than most of the general public. It is such an obscure area that interested parties cannot reasonably expect the general public to properly protect their interests. So, if not here on HN, then where?

nitrogen 13y ago
* So, if not here on HN, then where?* If you are referring to a vindictive mob singling out a low-ranking individual for mob justice, nowhere. That's about as far from the hacker ethos and the principles of a functional society as one can get.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >If you are referring to a vindictive mob singling out a low-ranking individual for mob justice, nowhere. It sounds really terrible when you say it like that.
  - tripzilch 13y ago
    Well, if it wasn't for all the people in this thread valiantly defending the status quo, we'd be about this close to literally burning some innocent individual at the stake. That's certainly worth a few frivolous patents, don't you think?

tripzilch 13y ago

> That's almost the very definition of an internet witchhunt. Apart from the two defining factors of a witch hunt: (1) irrational (2) assumption of guilt. I'll grant you the "Internet" part, though. > Getting these people fired won't fix the underlying problems. Arguing against taking action is almost guaranteed to let these problems fester and get worse for almost everybody except those very few who are profiting from the situation right now (the ones that you are trying to protect from an imaginary witch hunt, a currently non-existent situation). Then there's of course evoking the medieval imagery of torture, stake burning and death. Which is maybe appropriate as long as you're actually talking about e.g. the old 4chan (and similar) style "Internet witch hunts", mob justice, personal harassment and bullying. But it is nothing short of disingenuous when referring to people taking action and filing complaints when they notice someone doing a bad job in a high position of power. Even if those complaints may result in more than just a slap on the wrist (which seems like a likely outcome, anyway). The fact that people notice this as a group or a community doesn't make it a "witch hunt". And arguing to not do anything just because a lot of people are aware of it, is really quite silly, counter intuitive or counter productive (however you want to call it). I'd be right with you if there was any suggestion remotely like a 21st century equivalent of stake-burning or mob justice, but there isn't.