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Sam, As a former Green Dot VP, you're no doubt familiar with the money transmission legal problem (http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?objectId=09000064

Sam, As a former Green Dot VP, you're no doubt familiar with the money transmission legal problem (http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?objectId=090000648156588b&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf http://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?objectId=09000064...). Do you think it is ethical for Y Combinator, its portfolio companies, or its founders to violate state and federal laws simply because they're poorly enforced? Is it ethical for those companies to quietly hire, as contractors or employees, former regulators to "guide" them through the regulatory process? What about overseas tax havens? Does Y Combinator have a policy on the ethics of that issue? Also, there were more than two Y Combinator portfolio companies named as defendants in the federal lawsuit over money transmission (http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/t6maunfo/california-northern-district-court/think-computer-corporation-v-dwolla-inc-et-al/ http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/t6maunfo/california-norther...), so how are you defining "problems?" Are federal lawsuits alleging unlawful and immoral wrongdoing not "problematic?" What about shell corporations? Does Y Combinator have any connection to Payments Sub, Inc., the company that Airbnb's CFO formed after being sued to obtain a money transmission license in California? Regardless, wouldn't the most ethical thing to do in the face of a confusing legal situation involve public lobbying for reform of the laws at issue, rather than exploitation of the chaos? Why has Y Combinator consistently opted for the latter, rather than the former? Aaron

tlrobinson 12y ago
Speaking of ethics, I think you mean: "Also, there were more than two Y Combinator portfolio companies named as defendants in my federal lawsuit over money transmission"
- thinkcomp 12y ago
  Hi Tom, What's the ethical problem here exactly? I linked to the lawsuit docket, it's clear that my company filed it, and it doesn't matter either way in the context of my argument. Furthermore, had I written "my" as you suggest, it would make it sound like there is a potential ethical problem because I say so. But my point isn't that there is a potential ethical problem because I say so. My point is that there is a potential ethical problem when lawsuits in general start getting filed. Aaron
  - tlrobinson 12y ago
    Anyone can file a lawsuit naming anyone they like. You are using the existence of a lawsuit you filed as evidence in your argument. I would call that "circular logic".
    - thinkcomp 12y ago
      Actually, no, that's not what I'm doing. True, the lawsuit exists, and anyone can be named. But this particular lawsuit is backed up with a few hundred pages of evidence. Feel free to read it--that's why I linked to the docket, so that anyone can. No circular logic involved. Again, my point is that lawsuits are signaling mechanisms for ethical problems.
      - gamacodre 12y ago
        I disagree. Lawsuits could also be rightfully characterized as signalling mechanisms for predatory (but still ethical) commercial opportunities, social ills and/or exploitation of same, poorly constructed laws or regulations, reasonable disagreements, and probably half a dozen other situations. Not to mention that the ethical problems that could be signaled by a lawsuit might be those of the plaintiff, the defendant, or either of their legal teams. Or all of them together.
        thinkcomp 12y ago
        You disagree. With what? Did you read it? Do you have any thoughts on the ethical issues presented? Or are you trying to score some karma points? Is anyone here actually willing to discuss the actual points I've raised? Just want to get that on the record.
        gamacodre 12y ago
        Hmmm, I suppose that could have been plainer. I disagree with your assertion that - as a general rule - the existence of a lawsuit necessarily signals ethical concerns relating to the defendant. As for "it", if "it" was not in the text of one of the comments leading up to my post, I probably did not read "it". In any event, I doubt that further knowledge of "it" would have substantially modified the nature of that assertion you made. The actual subject matter of the lawsuit you've been referencing is only of marginal interest to me (and is irrelevant to my comment), and I didn't feel like looking through the claimed hundreds of pages of materials, or addressing the merits of a case that is already in the hands of professionals.
mindcrime 12y ago
"Legal" and "ethical" may overlap in places, but IMO those are largely orthogonal issues.
- 001sky 12y ago
  depends on what you mean by "orthogonal"? Ethics in business are simply informal rules. The purpose is to fill in gaps in the laws. (or mitigate the cost of a hyper-specific compliance regime). Thus, legal systems underpin the context for "informal ethics" in this sense. "Moral ethics" (so called) are a wholly distinct concept.
  - mindcrime 12y ago
    I'm using orthogonal in the sense of "can vary independently". IOW, something can be illegal but yet still be ethical, while something could be legal but still be unethical. Of course, this is all somewhat subjective, and I acknowledge some people may dispute the idea that something can be illegal and still be ethical. But if a law is bad, I believe breaking that law can be ethical behavior. YMMV.
    - 001sky 12y ago
      while they can vary independently because they are dis-similar, as a general rule it seems they are complementary more often than not. So, I would say they are likely co-vary together (even if inversely) at times. At an intutive level, "ethical fabric" is often/practically seen substitute for legal/regulatory infrastructure. The latter is more complex/arduous/expensive, so one advantage of developing ethical norms is increased productivy (from more focus on business, less on due dilligence/monitoring of contracts and general micro-management issues).
joshu 12y ago
Bringing "beating a dead horse" to new heights.
- thinkcomp 12y ago
  Your employer just filed a $5 billion lawsuit against Visa about this dead horse (interchange fees). It's not the first time. What happens in this market matters. http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec7xw86/arkansas-western-district-court/walmart-stores-inc-et-al-v-visa-usa-inc-et-al/ http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec7xw86/arkansas-western-... http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec8i12d/new-york-eastern-district-court/walmart-stores-inc-et-al-v-visa-usa-inc-et-al/ http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec8i12d/new-york-eastern-...
  - joshu 12y ago
    I'm not employed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Perhaps if you talked about anything else we wouldn't automatically think "oh, this guy again."
    - thinkcomp 12y ago
      "I'm an advisor for Walmart." --your profile on this web site. Is your argument really that I haven't written about enough different topics? Well, here's some for you: - Toxic waste in Palo Alto http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=88 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=88 - Supreme Court briefing requirements http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=87 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=87 - Business schools http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=58 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=58 - Airport security http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=49 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=49 So given that I've written about a variety of issues, do you have any substantive response to any of the questions I pose above?
      - tptacek 12y ago
        I'm not sure exactly what he means, but perhaps he's referring to what you choose to post to this particular site: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=author%3Athinkcomp#!/comment/sort_by_date/0/author%3Athinkcomp https://hn.algolia.com/?q=author%3Athinkcomp#!/comment/sort_... Wikipedia has a term that might (or might not?) apply here: "Single Purpose Account".
barry-cotter 12y ago
Law != Ethics e.g.the War on some Drug Users and most actual wars ever
stephen 12y ago
I just looked at your profile, and it's amazing you have an average of 3.81 even after all of the down vote hits you take each time this comes up. FWIW, with the whole money transmission thing, it does sound like you got screwed for doing the right thing. That sucks.

tlrobinson 12y ago

Speaking of ethics, I think you mean: "Also, there were more than two Y Combinator portfolio companies named as defendants in my federal lawsuit over money transmission"

thinkcomp 12y ago
Hi Tom, What's the ethical problem here exactly? I linked to the lawsuit docket, it's clear that my company filed it, and it doesn't matter either way in the context of my argument. Furthermore, had I written "my" as you suggest, it would make it sound like there is a potential ethical problem because I say so. But my point isn't that there is a potential ethical problem because I say so. My point is that there is a potential ethical problem when lawsuits in general start getting filed. Aaron
- tlrobinson 12y ago
  Anyone can file a lawsuit naming anyone they like. You are using the existence of a lawsuit you filed as evidence in your argument. I would call that "circular logic".
  - thinkcomp 12y ago
    Actually, no, that's not what I'm doing. True, the lawsuit exists, and anyone can be named. But this particular lawsuit is backed up with a few hundred pages of evidence. Feel free to read it--that's why I linked to the docket, so that anyone can. No circular logic involved. Again, my point is that lawsuits are signaling mechanisms for ethical problems.
    - gamacodre 12y ago
      I disagree. Lawsuits could also be rightfully characterized as signalling mechanisms for predatory (but still ethical) commercial opportunities, social ills and/or exploitation of same, poorly constructed laws or regulations, reasonable disagreements, and probably half a dozen other situations. Not to mention that the ethical problems that could be signaled by a lawsuit might be those of the plaintiff, the defendant, or either of their legal teams. Or all of them together.
      - thinkcomp 12y ago
        You disagree. With what? Did you read it? Do you have any thoughts on the ethical issues presented? Or are you trying to score some karma points? Is anyone here actually willing to discuss the actual points I've raised? Just want to get that on the record.
        gamacodre 12y ago
        Hmmm, I suppose that could have been plainer. I disagree with your assertion that - as a general rule - the existence of a lawsuit necessarily signals ethical concerns relating to the defendant. As for "it", if "it" was not in the text of one of the comments leading up to my post, I probably did not read "it". In any event, I doubt that further knowledge of "it" would have substantially modified the nature of that assertion you made. The actual subject matter of the lawsuit you've been referencing is only of marginal interest to me (and is irrelevant to my comment), and I didn't feel like looking through the claimed hundreds of pages of materials, or addressing the merits of a case that is already in the hands of professionals.

mindcrime 12y ago

"Legal" and "ethical" may overlap in places, but IMO those are largely orthogonal issues.

001sky 12y ago
depends on what you mean by "orthogonal"? Ethics in business are simply informal rules. The purpose is to fill in gaps in the laws. (or mitigate the cost of a hyper-specific compliance regime). Thus, legal systems underpin the context for "informal ethics" in this sense. "Moral ethics" (so called) are a wholly distinct concept.
- mindcrime 12y ago
  I'm using orthogonal in the sense of "can vary independently". IOW, something can be illegal but yet still be ethical, while something could be legal but still be unethical. Of course, this is all somewhat subjective, and I acknowledge some people may dispute the idea that something can be illegal and still be ethical. But if a law is bad, I believe breaking that law can be ethical behavior. YMMV.
  - 001sky 12y ago
    while they can vary independently because they are dis-similar, as a general rule it seems they are complementary more often than not. So, I would say they are likely co-vary together (even if inversely) at times. At an intutive level, "ethical fabric" is often/practically seen substitute for legal/regulatory infrastructure. The latter is more complex/arduous/expensive, so one advantage of developing ethical norms is increased productivy (from more focus on business, less on due dilligence/monitoring of contracts and general micro-management issues).

joshu 12y ago

Bringing "beating a dead horse" to new heights.

thinkcomp 12y ago
Your employer just filed a $5 billion lawsuit against Visa about this dead horse (interchange fees). It's not the first time. What happens in this market matters. http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec7xw86/arkansas-western-district-court/walmart-stores-inc-et-al-v-visa-usa-inc-et-al/ http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec7xw86/arkansas-western-... http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec8i12d/new-york-eastern-district-court/walmart-stores-inc-et-al-v-visa-usa-inc-et-al/ http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/28ec8i12d/new-york-eastern-...
- joshu 12y ago
  I'm not employed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Perhaps if you talked about anything else we wouldn't automatically think "oh, this guy again."
  - thinkcomp 12y ago
    "I'm an advisor for Walmart." --your profile on this web site. Is your argument really that I haven't written about enough different topics? Well, here's some for you: - Toxic waste in Palo Alto http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=88 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=88 - Supreme Court briefing requirements http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=87 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=87 - Business schools http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=58 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=58 - Airport security http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=49 http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/essay.html?id=49 So given that I've written about a variety of issues, do you have any substantive response to any of the questions I pose above?
    - tptacek 12y ago
      I'm not sure exactly what he means, but perhaps he's referring to what you choose to post to this particular site: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=author%3Athinkcomp#!/comment/sort_by_date/0/author%3Athinkcomp https://hn.algolia.com/?q=author%3Athinkcomp#!/comment/sort_... Wikipedia has a term that might (or might not?) apply here: "Single Purpose Account".

barry-cotter 12y ago

Law != Ethics e.g.the War on some Drug Users and most actual wars ever

stephen 12y ago

I just looked at your profile, and it's amazing you have an average of 3.81 even after all of the down vote hits you take each time this comes up. FWIW, with the whole money transmission thing, it does sound like you got screwed for doing the right thing. That sucks.