5 ms·

I think that many employers are hoping that they will get lucky and "discover" a genius just out of school that will work for entry level pay.

caw 13y ago
And maybe they will, because the genius won't value themselves properly (on the flip side, I'm sure there's a ton of people with inflated expectations), but eventually they're going to figure it out and they'll leave. I'm seriously doubting that employers can find these kids faster than they leave.
- 67726e 13y ago
  I definitely agree with this. I dropped out of college and went full-time at the place I had been working and was making something like $12/hour (I think it was bumped up to $16) then turned into a salary. I didn't really question it. Luckily I have a more than fair boss who understands the value I bring to the table and gave me extreme raises twice in the first year. Had he not done that I wouldn't have realized how much I bring to the table with my skills and would think a low salary is perfectly normal for me.
throwaway7767 13y ago
I recently found out my friend of many years and flatmate, a very skilled programmer, was making about minimum wage and had been for all of his working life (15+ years). These people exist. I told him he was getting shafted hard, and convinced him to go demand a raise. Sure enough, the next day he told me his boss doubled his pay as soon as he asked. He just never had the confidence to ask before.
- dnissley 13y ago
  I'm just now getting out of a situation like this that I've been in for 7 years. It's a position that I got after I dropped out of a CS program after the first year, and my inexperience and lack of education made me feel like I didn't deserve all that much. But I did my job well, orders of magnitude better than some of my coworkers. I clued up about 2 years ago, and have been asking for more and more money on a regular basis. The breaking point was when I asked for a certain amount and they literally laughed at me. I immediately started making plans to leave. Next monday I start a new job where I will finally be making more than my age in dollars per hour.
- danielweber 13y ago
  My personal rules for maximizing my pay: 1. Don't have my head up my ass. It can be hard. I can totally imagine myself being your flatmate in a parallel universe. This should be required reading for each of us at least once a year: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
  - Xdes 13y ago
    I wish I had read this before my job interview. I feel like I'm getting lowballed when I thought the offer I got was great. I'll definitely read this before my next job interview. Does this apply to freelance rate negotiation too?
    - danielweber 13y ago
      Honestly I just screwed it up a few days ago myself. I let myself get backed into the corner of talking about my salary history. And it's not the first time I've done it, not even the first time year since reading that essay.
      - Xdes 13y ago
        It is the same for me. I wish I could give you a pat on the back.
- r00fus 13y ago
  Double minimum wage still sounds crazy low. Hopefully his experience will give your friend fresh perspective on requesting a fair wage going forward.
  - sukuriant 13y ago
    Depends on the location. Software devs aren't as highly loved in places that aren't The Valley and other tech hubs
    - r00fus 13y ago
      I guess also of note is that in the USA, minimum wage is not a livable wage and would likely put the employee close to the poverty line even for a full-time hourly job (which is often not given because then the employer would be required to provide health insurance). Is that the case where you live?
      - sukuriant 13y ago
        I know people that survive on just above minimum wage and even pay for their own housing. They almost always make rent, but until they both started working, it was very, very close. I'm actually surprised that they can survive. They don't eat very often or well... or didn't. I think that's improved since both of them are working now; but... yes. But yes, I know a person. He has full time, surprisingly, but he refused health care BECAUSE he wouldn't be able to survive, and he is making more than minimum wage.
- nathan_f77 13y ago
  That is one of the most depressing things I've ever read.
- eric_h 13y ago
  This was me for about the first 5-6 years of my career, then I was able to double my salary twice in two years (and had some more modest raises/bonuses since). Definitely valuable to know what you're actually worth on the market, I didn't learn that until I got involved in the NYC startup scene.
usea 13y ago
I know a few companies for whom this is their businesses model. They hire the top tier CS talent from local universities and use them to build products for clients at hourly rates many multiples of their actual cost to the company. This opportunity exists all over the place because there are a lot of skilled programmers graduating from places that big companies' recruiters just don't look.

caw 13y ago

And maybe they will, because the genius won't value themselves properly (on the flip side, I'm sure there's a ton of people with inflated expectations), but eventually they're going to figure it out and they'll leave. I'm seriously doubting that employers can find these kids faster than they leave.

67726e 13y ago
I definitely agree with this. I dropped out of college and went full-time at the place I had been working and was making something like $12/hour (I think it was bumped up to $16) then turned into a salary. I didn't really question it. Luckily I have a more than fair boss who understands the value I bring to the table and gave me extreme raises twice in the first year. Had he not done that I wouldn't have realized how much I bring to the table with my skills and would think a low salary is perfectly normal for me.

throwaway7767 13y ago

I recently found out my friend of many years and flatmate, a very skilled programmer, was making about minimum wage and had been for all of his working life (15+ years). These people exist. I told him he was getting shafted hard, and convinced him to go demand a raise. Sure enough, the next day he told me his boss doubled his pay as soon as he asked. He just never had the confidence to ask before.

dnissley 13y ago
I'm just now getting out of a situation like this that I've been in for 7 years. It's a position that I got after I dropped out of a CS program after the first year, and my inexperience and lack of education made me feel like I didn't deserve all that much. But I did my job well, orders of magnitude better than some of my coworkers. I clued up about 2 years ago, and have been asking for more and more money on a regular basis. The breaking point was when I asked for a certain amount and they literally laughed at me. I immediately started making plans to leave. Next monday I start a new job where I will finally be making more than my age in dollars per hour.
danielweber 13y ago
My personal rules for maximizing my pay: 1. Don't have my head up my ass. It can be hard. I can totally imagine myself being your flatmate in a parallel universe. This should be required reading for each of us at least once a year: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
- Xdes 13y ago
  I wish I had read this before my job interview. I feel like I'm getting lowballed when I thought the offer I got was great. I'll definitely read this before my next job interview. Does this apply to freelance rate negotiation too?
  - danielweber 13y ago
    Honestly I just screwed it up a few days ago myself. I let myself get backed into the corner of talking about my salary history. And it's not the first time I've done it, not even the first time year since reading that essay.
    - Xdes 13y ago
      It is the same for me. I wish I could give you a pat on the back.
r00fus 13y ago
Double minimum wage still sounds crazy low. Hopefully his experience will give your friend fresh perspective on requesting a fair wage going forward.
- sukuriant 13y ago
  Depends on the location. Software devs aren't as highly loved in places that aren't The Valley and other tech hubs
  - r00fus 13y ago
    I guess also of note is that in the USA, minimum wage is not a livable wage and would likely put the employee close to the poverty line even for a full-time hourly job (which is often not given because then the employer would be required to provide health insurance). Is that the case where you live?
    - sukuriant 13y ago
      I know people that survive on just above minimum wage and even pay for their own housing. They almost always make rent, but until they both started working, it was very, very close. I'm actually surprised that they can survive. They don't eat very often or well... or didn't. I think that's improved since both of them are working now; but... yes. But yes, I know a person. He has full time, surprisingly, but he refused health care BECAUSE he wouldn't be able to survive, and he is making more than minimum wage.
nathan_f77 13y ago
That is one of the most depressing things I've ever read.
eric_h 13y ago
This was me for about the first 5-6 years of my career, then I was able to double my salary twice in two years (and had some more modest raises/bonuses since). Definitely valuable to know what you're actually worth on the market, I didn't learn that until I got involved in the NYC startup scene.

usea 13y ago

I know a few companies for whom this is their businesses model. They hire the top tier CS talent from local universities and use them to build products for clients at hourly rates many multiples of their actual cost to the company. This opportunity exists all over the place because there are a lot of skilled programmers graduating from places that big companies' recruiters just don't look.