8 ms·

On those "Entitled" Twenty-Somethings

105 points by bkudria 17y ago

bkudria 17y ago
Before everybody starts complaining, yes, I know that this is, on the surface, about the health care debate. However, before complaining that this isn't HN-material, consider for a moment the prevailing expectation college graduates have: "I need to get a job, which I can now do because I have a college degree." The author doesn't even consider entrepreneurship. Can we as a society do better, so more people realize that that no one owes them anything, and any promises that were made to them were probably made by the well-meaning, but ultimately un- or misinformed?
- karzeem 17y ago
  A lot of 20-somethings — especially the ones with natural intelligence — grew up jumping through hoops. An adult puts up a hoop, you jump through it. A clear series of steps. Take the tests, ace the classes, get into the good college. It's clear what you're evaluated on, and it's clear what you have to do to ace the evaluation. But once kids get out of college, no one's putting up hoops anymore. No one's telling you "Do x, then y will happen." And a lot of people have no idea what to do if the hoops aren't being put up by someone else. Making your own hoops — being able to do anything and not necessarily getting clear, immediate positive reinforcement that you've chosen correctly and done well — is simply not something that a lot of people are good at. Maybe that's related to the upbringing of today's 20-somethings and maybe it's not, but being a member of that group myself, it does seem like a widespread phenomenon.
  - Alex3917 17y ago
    "Maybe that's related to the upbringing of today's 20-somethings and maybe it's not" Science shows pretty clearly that it is related to upbringing. C.f. Punished by Rewards. The way high-SES parents overstimulate their infants and toddlers also seems to be causing long term damage to executive function. Because of poor parenting and the way our school system is designed, kids are essentially graduating with severe cognitive damage and are unable to invent and manage their own lives.
  - yardie 17y ago
    ^^^ This. My experience of people at college could classify them into 2 types. Those that were dealt a shitty hand in life and were doing everything possible to get a new deck. And those that knew the game and were just playing along. Do X and you'll receive Y. Good grades means a good job. College is, predominantly, made of the later. The third group of slackers doesn't really count and were gone by the 2nd year. I was dealt the shitty hand. Single working mom with more kids than resources to handle them. A broke elementary school. I learned early on the social contract between jobs and employees was broken when my mom was laid off and we were constantly fighting the water, electricity, and telephone company to maintain basic services. I signed up for every afterschool program available because I hated having to go to an unairconditioned home in the Florida heat. God must have a wicked sense of humor, my reluctance to stay home meant I did academically well. And eventually getting into a good uni. When I got to university I was incredibly envious of those around me. Who had the resources to buy a computer when I certainly couldn't. They had everything in life handed to them. I wished I had a tutor but it was expensive. I wished I had a scheduled life because it seemed easier than trying to figure it out. I wished my family wasn't 1000 miles away because for the first time I felt alone. All of these things meant I had to fend for myself and take nothing for granted. When I see how life is for kids lately I feel sorry for them. Everything is planned out around them with little input from them. You rarely see a kid sign up for basketball or soccer without the parents nearby. I remember signing my moms signature on so many things that when she really did sign something they thought it was a forgery. I remember forging health insurance forms because I couldn't play soccer without it and I knew we didn't have it. God if I would have gotten seriously injured we would have been fucked. They are told to complete a task and expect a reward. I was told to do something because it had to be done. As my mom would say, "Go to school or I will beat your ass!". Life is actually like that. It can be rewarding, but fundamentally life doesn't reward you for doing a good job. You are trying to avoid getting your ass kicked by life.
TomOfTTB 17y ago
Well, I wouldn't hire him. Look, no one questions this is a hard moment in time to Graduate. It's just bad luck for those who are entering the job market. But guess what, Life isn't fair. Sometimes your handed lemons. Not understanding that is what makes this guy just as entitled as the articles claim he is. My advice to him would be get what ever job he can for now, continue to perfect his skills and learn to be grateful for what he does have. If he does that I can almost guarantee he'll find a good job. I can't say exactly when (I can't predict the economy) but it will be before 99% of his fellow 20 somethings
- pyre 17y ago
  > Not understanding that is what makes this guy just as entitled as the articles claim he is. Does that make him 'entitled' or just naive? > My advice to him would be get what ever job he can for now, continue to perfect his skills and learn to be grateful for what he does have. Not always true. I've worked many jobs that suck the life out of you. And I've known people that have languished in such jobs because once you get home you don't feel like doing anything but shutting down. Thankfully I'm in a much better job now.
hexis 17y ago
These twenty-somethings want it to be one way, but it's the other way.
- ojbyrne 17y ago
  Damn I miss that show.
mmt 17y ago
The author was lied to, but not by me or my kind. I actually vaguely remember hearing the same lies, but not from my parents, at least not without the "nobody owes you anything" caveat. It didn't take me long to realize, intuitively, if not explicitly, that finishing college wouldn't help me get the job I wanted. Today, obviously, it might not even help me get any job. Even absent an entrepreneurship opportunity, I dropped out, and I don't regret it, despite the stigma it carried in the computer industry, well into the dot-com boom. I'm definitely embarrassed for my generation that we perpetuated the lies, rather than encouraging choices, including self-employment or learning a trade.
- cakesy 17y ago
  You know, I was told if I worked hard I would get a job. I did, and I did. Many people I know did the same, were always working during Uni, and had little problem getting a job. Many people I know don't work hard, slacked around at uni, and can't find a job. I found this advice to be quite good, although I am sure it doesn't work for everyone. Then again, I never felt I was entitled to a job.
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    I was told if I worked hard I would get a job. I figured this was bullshit, so I slacked off. I never had problems finding a job. :-P The plural of anecdote is not data. ;-)
    - bartw 17y ago
      Mind if i put that piece of gold into my '.fortunes' ?
      - nostrademons 17y ago
        Sure, go for it.
- pyre 17y ago
  > I'm definitely embarrassed for my generation that we perpetuated the lies, rather than encouraging choices, including self-employment or learning a trade. This is mainly the result of over-protective, risk-averse parenting. To them, the best way for their child to achieve success was along this path. If their child tried to deviate from the path, they were grabbed by the scruff and forcefully put back on this path by their parents until it was ingrained in them as the only path. To such parents, things like entrepreneurship are too risky. Their child might fail, and have nothing to show for it. It's better for their child to just go through college, get a job at a large corporation and possibly spend their life working their way up through middle-management until their seniority gains them a nice juicy salary along the way...
moe 17y ago
Quote: Apparently people in their 20s are a bunch of entitled whiners. Judging by the tone of this article I have to say, yes, his premise is dead on. Someone fix the headline: College boy finds out that life isn't fair, cries a river.
- pyre 17y ago
  The point that I took away is that there are plenty of people in their 20's that bust their butts. When the older generation is complaining about the '20-something whiners' the tone of those rants is usually about how little the '20-something whiners' do (i.e. they sit at home and watch tv/smoke pot/play videogames/etc rather than bettering themselves through education/etc).
  - gehant 17y ago
    Entitlement involves having an inflated view of oneself - based on what's said in the article, sounds about right. Just seems odd that the author complains about not being able to find a job, yet takes zero responsibility for his situation. When I graduated college (into a shitty job market) many job offers were delayed, rescinded, or simply unavailable - I don't remember blaming everyone else.
    - pyre 17y ago
      I don't know that he's necessarily blaming the older generation so much as he's pointing out that the older generation made all sorts of promises such as, "Unless you get a university degree, you'll never get a good job" and "Once you have a university degree the job market is smooth sailin'" which are obviously not true. And now the older generation is complaining that the younger generations -- raised on such 'truths' and promises -- are saying "Where's this cushy job I was supposed to get with my college degree?"
- olliesaunders 17y ago
  I think it's pretty bad if their parents and teachers let "College boy" believe that for so long. This [TED talk](http://ted.com/talks/lang/eng/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_philosophy_of_success.html http://ted.com/talks/lang/eng/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentl...) might be of interest.
jasoncalacanis 17y ago
1. It's fairly clear a decent portion of the 20 somethings coming out of school now are entitled and don't work hard. 2. It's fairly clear that a lot of the 30 and 40 somethings out there came out of school, gave up their souls and worked for the man and regret it--in other words they weren't entitled enough. 3. It's fairly clear this story has nothing to do with the folks reading Hacker News who are a self-selected group of entrepreneurial folks who are hard working and self-motivated. Please move along, nothing to see here.
Elepsis 17y ago
The article linked to at the end (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/16/our_gimme_society_97908.html http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/16/our_gim...), interestingly, is complaining about a group of young people who are asking Congress for this list of "youth bailouts": Among other things, the coalition wants: free college tuition for low-income students who are willing to do volunteer work; the right to be covered in their parents' health insurance program until the age of 26; college loan-forgiveness programs for young people who agree to serve distressed communities after graduation; and micro loans for young entrepreneurs to start their own businesses. ... Frankly, those all sound like far smarter, better initiatives than propping up failing car manufacturers (which are, coincidentally, dominated by an older generation) or expanded government health coverage (which also disproportionately benefits older people). If that's what the 20-somethings of today "feel entitled" to, I feel pretty good about being a part of the group.
- TomOfTTB 17y ago
  I'm sorry but I disagree (I'm a 20-something but not for much longer so I really don't think it counts). Volunteer work is just that. You're supposed to volunteer. It's purpose is to show people the value of sacrifice. Doing volunteer work for Government compensation is called being a Government employee. Plus, as a former low income student I can tell you programs already exist that allow them to go to college for free and they're called Student Loans. With a part time job you can pay your living expenses and through grants and loans you can pay for school with very little problem. Health care's screwed up and it should be cheaper but I don't want to send the message that it's ok to live off your parents at 26 years of age. I don't have a problem with loan forgiveness for graduates that serve impoverished communities but that already exists for teachers and public servants. Finally, while micro-loans seem like a good idea it would almost certainly end in a huge cash drain with virtually no pay off. Programs like YC work because they educate while funding. A 22 year old with little work experience who thinks the answer is to turn to the Government for money stands almost no chance of creating a successful business imho (and as someone who knows his fair share of entrepreneurs I've found most will tell you their first venture failed)
  - 17y ago
mynameishere 17y ago
I believe private insurance for 20-somethings is very cheap. Anyway, health care. I think old people understand that the system is kind-of, sort-of insolvent already, and that expanding it will probably push it over the cliff at a bad time for them. Being shrill and ranty is all well and good, but other people have their worries, too.
- krschultz 17y ago
  It's not.
  - mynameishere 17y ago
    Yeah, well, doing 5 minutes of research shows me that plans in the 300-400/month range are available. http://www.ehealthinsurance.com http://www.ehealthinsurance.com ...the deductibles tend to be 2000-3000 dollars, but that's not unreasonable. If you have any data to provide, please do so, because chirpy little responses are just so much pollution.
    - Alex3917 17y ago
      Usually you choose your deductible and the amount of drug coverage you want. Higher deductibles mean cheaper monthly payments. If you are a male in your 20s and you are relatively healthy, you should be able to get good health coverage for ~125 a month if you are willing to do a really high deductible, say 10k. What this means is that you essentially only have health care if you get into a car accident or something, and for everything else you need to go into a walk-in clinic and pay yourself. If you want routine healthcare it should be closer to 200 month. It's more expensive for women, closer to 300 a month or more. If you are in less than perfect health then the rates go up, that is if you can get coverage at all. There are also certain programs that offer cheaper than normal health care because they use they are run by religious organizations who use the first amendment to get around certain regulations and fees.
    - quoderat 17y ago
      As I can tell you from past experience, 300-400 dollars a month is not a small amount for someone in their 20s with little to no income. In fact, that's a veritable sea of wealth. If it's a choice between eating and health insurance, which it was for me at times, people will choose eating. And having a roof over their heads.
edw519 17y ago
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Like OP, I busted my butt in pursuit of a better future, graduated with an BS in Math and an MBA just to work at Denny's for 18 months before finding my first programming job. But I can't imagine ever writing a piece like this. I have only one "understanding". No one is ever going to give me anything, so I just have to suck it up and get it for myself. If OP perseveres for what he wants as well as he whines, problem solved. Oh and by the way, I got my MBA and worked at Denny's in 1978, so STFU and get busy.
- cakesy 17y ago
  People who are really serious at work, get into jobs in the last year of uni or before. There are loads of programs at uni, that you can get involved in, to help businesses. Some of these even pay, i did one that involved stochastic modelling for a large car company. That is when you should get involved, companies don't want someone with no experience of how to act in the work place.
  - yardie 17y ago
    I sort of agree, except schools are hosting job fairs and finding out no one is coming. Laying people off is hard emotionally. Except for corporate raiders, most companies don't like to do it. It depresses morale. Now imagine you've gone through 2-3,000 workers. But you're still shopping around for interns. The people that stay will see this, and you can guarantee there will be a great deal of sabotage. I remember when there was the contraction (dotbomb) in 1999-2000. I was in Uni and when I went to the job fairs (Engineering, Science, and business colleges all had their own) the amount of alumnus was overwhelming. Guys that had graduated many years before me were taking a 2-3 hour drive to this land-grant university hoping to get a shot. Using their alumni connections to get any job. You can imagine what it would be like for an undergrad, no experience, no references, a meager resume, and a start date months or years away. I remember when Intel gave new hires severance money $7-10,000. They weren't going to start for at least 6 months. But Intel just laid off ~4,000 people so no way these guys were getting in. The problem is those programs are also tied to the economy in general. When businesses aren't hiring paid positions, it is also unlikely they are looking for unpaid interns. And those university programs are meaningless if there are no where for them to go.
sjsivak 17y ago
Is anyone else really curious what sort of degree the author of this article has? I just graduated in May and almost everyone I know with a CS or engineering degree found jobs pretty easily. It was only the bottom of the barrel that struggled, and even most of those people still managed to find something in their field.
- bdittmer 17y ago
  I was wondering the exact same thing. That BA in a philosophy wasn't such a good idea after all, eh skippy? :D
  - angstrom 17y ago
    I wouldn't say that. It's helping him expound upon the entitled morass that is his life. He'll have reached true zen when he realizes he could've saved $40K and said "Fuck You." to the world without college.
  - ibsulon 17y ago
    Oddly enough, Philosophy is a poor choice here. When measured, philosophy graduates end up doing quite well on the median, possibly because it is a path to law school for many but also because it teaches many skills that end up being useful in the workplace. I suggest media arts. :)
californiaguy 17y ago
No, fuck this guy and his bullshit attitude. I'm 25 and I work over 12 hours a day in my technology services company and startup projects and I make a good god damn living for myself and so does everyone who puts in time for our company. It's his problem for believing the bullshit "adults" told him all his life. I knew from day one it was complete and utter nonsense. I bet he learned to blame others from them too. He should only blame himself for his lack of foresight. I also have a degree from a good university but the difference is I used that time as an opportunity to extend my social and professional network instead of counting on a fucking piece of paper to grant me magical opportunities. College is what it's always been: a club for the children of privilege to come together and make relationships. If you treat it as such, the value of an "education" is apparent the minute you step foot on campus. Don't waste your time going to a bullshit school without any smart or wealthy people. Just skip it unless you can go to a good school.
- blhack 17y ago
  What company do you work for, I'd love a job... See, the way it is where I work is that you better fucking have your laptop with you 24/7 because if one of the duct-tape and chicken-wire projects that you're required to support goes down...well then hollly shit it better be fixed like RIGHT. FREAKING. NOW. (never mind that these outages and crashes happen at companies that we are customers of...as in: they won't let me into their FTP server to fix it when it is just fucking dropping connections for no reason). But by golly, we better be glad to even HAVE a job! See, if we whine, or don't perform 100% all the time every day (even during our "vacation") there are a few hundred qualified applicants ready to take our job for the same pay and the same requirements (these people will burn out in a couple of months...again...and the cycle will continue). How did this start? Too many people were told that they were special. Too many degrees were given out, and now the job market is flooded with people. We have a surplus of "skills". How is it that people can't wrap their head around man-hours as a commodity? De beers knows this, they keep vaults full of diamonds locked away in a basement in NYC because they know that if they dump all those diamonds on the market, the price will get driven down. We've been screwed. I'm sorry, this isn't entitlement. This is facts. We've been screwed.
dlytle 17y ago
The older generation is bitter because they heavily invested according to a specific system of advancement, lived a good life because of it, and now these modern kids act like the system was always broken. The younger generation is bitter because they heavily invested according to a specific system of advancement, discovered that the rewards provided by the system have fundamentally changed, and blame the geezers for steering them down the wrong path. Neither generation wants to accept that the rules have changed and don't pay off the way they used to. That's why they're trying to find someone to blame. (Other than themselves, of course.)
baddox 17y ago
If he feels he's entitled simply because he worked hard and did what his parents told him, he clearly had (and has) some unrealistic expectations.
vitaminj 17y ago
If you go to the bank and deposit $20, you are entitled to get your $20 from the bank. If you fulfill your half of a contract, you are entitled to the other party’s performance. Well, if you enter into a verbal agreement with someone, you're not necessarily entitled to anything. When your parents told you to work hard at school and college with the promise that the world will take care of you, you didn't enter into a legitimate contract. So despite your whining, the world doesn't owe you shit.
calcnerd256 17y ago
He mentions generational justice. Does that even make sense? The older generation is going to die first, and then the one that was younger gets to take their turn. A revolving system like that doesn't have to have each pair of adjacent agents breaking even with respect to one another if the inequities are passed on. Well, I'm not saying I like the idea that we should be oppressed and then take our turn to oppress the next group; I'm just saying the notion of "generational justice" doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.
- chairface 17y ago
  I think it makes sense. Some generations are bigger than others, and the bigger ones (like the one this guy is complaining about) can throw their weight around at the expense of the others. They carry more political weight. I, for instance, was born in a smaller generation. The baby boomers will control things for a decade or two more, and after they start dying, those younger than me will become dominant. I'm not really that concerned about this - I came to terms with it long ago. But it's still there, and I can understand if some people get bitter about things like this.
jsz0 17y ago
I don't feel all that entitled but I can understand why the "get good grades, goto a good college, have a wonderful life" crowd feels short changed. That message was drilled into their heads by teachers, family, friends, etc. I would probably feel entitled in that situation. You did all the "right things" and aren't seeing the promised benefits. No one mentioned sometimes it takes a while or just never happens. For any political issues like health care young people make themselves, and issues they care about, irrelevant by not voting in sufficiently large numbers. Again, the promise of democracy doesn't really live up to reality. I suspect it's just a common generational problem. In your 20's you're young enough to remember carefree youth but not successful enough yet to see your own life as living up to your expectations.
paul9290 17y ago
Why is this even getting voted up? This guy needs to join that girl in her silly lawsuit she filed against her college. I'd never hire her nor this whiner. Though maybe this is there way of thinking of the box and getting attention. They say any kind of attention is good(publicity), yet for me I still would not hire either!
brianmckenzie 17y ago
Everything your parents told you was a lie. Well, not really - raising children is fundamentally different than raising adults. Only adults can raise themselves. Do the drugs. Have underage sex. Steal a car. Get into a fistfight. After this, you will realize that life is not prescriptive/deterministic.
c00p3r 17y ago
He will say "Thanks for that" to his parents when he will be "thirty-something".
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
hooande 17y ago
So let me get this straight... people told you to study hard and over achieve, and now you're upset because things aren't as easy as you were promised? Welcome to the real world. Sad Fact #1: Everything people tell you isn't true. Even your parents, religious leaders and teachers will tell you things that aren't entirely true, mostly because they have their own motivations. Sad Fact #2: You can do everything the right way and still fail. Mostly because there are a lot of people who's parents also told them to study hard and overachieve, and by the nature of the system you can't all win big. I had to learn these lessons the hard way, too. Everyone does, sooner or later. Some people respond by taking another look around and wondering what else they don't know. Other people start to demand the respect they were promised without having yet accomplished anything impressive. If you're in that second group you have what they call a "sense of entitlement", no matter what the previous generation told you.
BearOfNH 17y ago
For every complaint about the benefits of seniority, networking, etc., there's an older guy (and usually it IS a guy) who is laid off so a cheaper kid can be hired to replace him. Of course if you've got a liberal arts degree from a diploma mill, that won't be you.
maximumwage 17y ago
What is the correct attitude that twenty-somethings should have? So far I have a few guesses: work on creating value for the world, be relentlessly resourceful, focus on cause and effect instead of whether something is "right" or "wrong", etc. Am I on the right track?
- adrianwaj 17y ago
  Learn how to look at yourself from the other side of the table and build bridges, take, but also give equally.
pj 17y ago
The problem is that twenty somethings don't vote and silver hairs do. I was watching footage from the town hall meetings around the country for the health care reform and noticed only one person without gray hair there and she was still old.
chubbard 17y ago
Knowing everything you know now. Would you not do your homework, participate in extracurricular activities, play sports, learn to play the piano, apply and attend a good college? If not then what? Do you feel you wasted your time doing those things?
- squashed 17y ago
  My article. Yes I would do it again. I would probably take Spanish instead of Latin. That would have been useful. All those things are good things to do in themselves--and many will be useful in the future. That said, It's a rough time for a lot of people graduating now--and it's ridiculous to see older people pretend that they're having trouble because they did something wrong.
kp212 17y ago
All I can say is, and I've been working over 8 years, if I was graduating college in this economy with 50+k in loans, no job, the worst UE rate in 20+ years, I'd be pissed as well. Not saying its right, not saying its wrong, just saying...
etravers 17y ago
And now a few words from a parent... We tell you these things so you will apply yourself and have what it takes when/if you get the opportunity. There is a diff between flipping burgers because [the market is tight| you're working through college| any other hurdle] and flipping burgers because you aren't qualified to do anything else. We remember questioning "when will I need to know X when I grow up?". Nine times out of ten they are teaching something completely useless, but it is something you have to work your way through. I tell my kids that the majority of what is taught in school is bullsh|t, but it is something they must/will do because if they do not they will have to answer to me. I tell them that the most important parts of school aren't remembering why some old dead guy crossed the Delaware. The most important things are learning how to solve problems and think for themselves. I tell them the controlling, idiotic teachers they are dealing with now are just like the controlling, idiotic bosses and coworkers they will be dealing with when they enter the job market so they better get used to it. I teach them to take responsibility for their own screw-ups and short comings and the importance of remaining focused and humble when they are the hero of the moment. It sounds as though some kids get the sugar and spice version. Now that you know the truth adjust accordingly and get on with it!

105 points by bkudria 17y ago

Before everybody starts complaining, yes, I know that this is, on the surface, about the health care debate. However, before complaining that this isn't HN-material, consider for a moment the prevailing expectation college graduates have: "I need to get a job, which I can now do because I have a college degree." The author doesn't even consider entrepreneurship. Can we as a society do better, so more people realize that that no one owes them anything, and any promises that were made to them were probably made by the well-meaning, but ultimately un- or misinformed?

karzeem 17y ago
A lot of 20-somethings — especially the ones with natural intelligence — grew up jumping through hoops. An adult puts up a hoop, you jump through it. A clear series of steps. Take the tests, ace the classes, get into the good college. It's clear what you're evaluated on, and it's clear what you have to do to ace the evaluation. But once kids get out of college, no one's putting up hoops anymore. No one's telling you "Do x, then y will happen." And a lot of people have no idea what to do if the hoops aren't being put up by someone else. Making your own hoops — being able to do anything and not necessarily getting clear, immediate positive reinforcement that you've chosen correctly and done well — is simply not something that a lot of people are good at. Maybe that's related to the upbringing of today's 20-somethings and maybe it's not, but being a member of that group myself, it does seem like a widespread phenomenon.
- Alex3917 17y ago
  "Maybe that's related to the upbringing of today's 20-somethings and maybe it's not" Science shows pretty clearly that it is related to upbringing. C.f. Punished by Rewards. The way high-SES parents overstimulate their infants and toddlers also seems to be causing long term damage to executive function. Because of poor parenting and the way our school system is designed, kids are essentially graduating with severe cognitive damage and are unable to invent and manage their own lives.
- yardie 17y ago
  ^^^ This. My experience of people at college could classify them into 2 types. Those that were dealt a shitty hand in life and were doing everything possible to get a new deck. And those that knew the game and were just playing along. Do X and you'll receive Y. Good grades means a good job. College is, predominantly, made of the later. The third group of slackers doesn't really count and were gone by the 2nd year. I was dealt the shitty hand. Single working mom with more kids than resources to handle them. A broke elementary school. I learned early on the social contract between jobs and employees was broken when my mom was laid off and we were constantly fighting the water, electricity, and telephone company to maintain basic services. I signed up for every afterschool program available because I hated having to go to an unairconditioned home in the Florida heat. God must have a wicked sense of humor, my reluctance to stay home meant I did academically well. And eventually getting into a good uni. When I got to university I was incredibly envious of those around me. Who had the resources to buy a computer when I certainly couldn't. They had everything in life handed to them. I wished I had a tutor but it was expensive. I wished I had a scheduled life because it seemed easier than trying to figure it out. I wished my family wasn't 1000 miles away because for the first time I felt alone. All of these things meant I had to fend for myself and take nothing for granted. When I see how life is for kids lately I feel sorry for them. Everything is planned out around them with little input from them. You rarely see a kid sign up for basketball or soccer without the parents nearby. I remember signing my moms signature on so many things that when she really did sign something they thought it was a forgery. I remember forging health insurance forms because I couldn't play soccer without it and I knew we didn't have it. God if I would have gotten seriously injured we would have been fucked. They are told to complete a task and expect a reward. I was told to do something because it had to be done. As my mom would say, "Go to school or I will beat your ass!". Life is actually like that. It can be rewarding, but fundamentally life doesn't reward you for doing a good job. You are trying to avoid getting your ass kicked by life.

TomOfTTB 17y ago

Well, I wouldn't hire him. Look, no one questions this is a hard moment in time to Graduate. It's just bad luck for those who are entering the job market. But guess what, Life isn't fair. Sometimes your handed lemons. Not understanding that is what makes this guy just as entitled as the articles claim he is. My advice to him would be get what ever job he can for now, continue to perfect his skills and learn to be grateful for what he does have. If he does that I can almost guarantee he'll find a good job. I can't say exactly when (I can't predict the economy) but it will be before 99% of his fellow 20 somethings

pyre 17y ago
> Not understanding that is what makes this guy just as entitled as the articles claim he is. Does that make him 'entitled' or just naive? > My advice to him would be get what ever job he can for now, continue to perfect his skills and learn to be grateful for what he does have. Not always true. I've worked many jobs that suck the life out of you. And I've known people that have languished in such jobs because once you get home you don't feel like doing anything but shutting down. Thankfully I'm in a much better job now.

hexis 17y ago

These twenty-somethings want it to be one way, but it's the other way.

ojbyrne 17y ago
Damn I miss that show.

mmt 17y ago

The author was lied to, but not by me or my kind. I actually vaguely remember hearing the same lies, but not from my parents, at least not without the "nobody owes you anything" caveat. It didn't take me long to realize, intuitively, if not explicitly, that finishing college wouldn't help me get the job I wanted. Today, obviously, it might not even help me get any job. Even absent an entrepreneurship opportunity, I dropped out, and I don't regret it, despite the stigma it carried in the computer industry, well into the dot-com boom. I'm definitely embarrassed for my generation that we perpetuated the lies, rather than encouraging choices, including self-employment or learning a trade.

cakesy 17y ago
You know, I was told if I worked hard I would get a job. I did, and I did. Many people I know did the same, were always working during Uni, and had little problem getting a job. Many people I know don't work hard, slacked around at uni, and can't find a job. I found this advice to be quite good, although I am sure it doesn't work for everyone. Then again, I never felt I was entitled to a job.
- nostrademons 17y ago
  I was told if I worked hard I would get a job. I figured this was bullshit, so I slacked off. I never had problems finding a job. :-P The plural of anecdote is not data. ;-)
  - bartw 17y ago
    Mind if i put that piece of gold into my '.fortunes' ?
    - nostrademons 17y ago
      Sure, go for it.
pyre 17y ago
> I'm definitely embarrassed for my generation that we perpetuated the lies, rather than encouraging choices, including self-employment or learning a trade. This is mainly the result of over-protective, risk-averse parenting. To them, the best way for their child to achieve success was along this path. If their child tried to deviate from the path, they were grabbed by the scruff and forcefully put back on this path by their parents until it was ingrained in them as the only path. To such parents, things like entrepreneurship are too risky. Their child might fail, and have nothing to show for it. It's better for their child to just go through college, get a job at a large corporation and possibly spend their life working their way up through middle-management until their seniority gains them a nice juicy salary along the way...

moe 17y ago

Quote: Apparently people in their 20s are a bunch of entitled whiners. Judging by the tone of this article I have to say, yes, his premise is dead on. Someone fix the headline: College boy finds out that life isn't fair, cries a river.

pyre 17y ago
The point that I took away is that there are plenty of people in their 20's that bust their butts. When the older generation is complaining about the '20-something whiners' the tone of those rants is usually about how little the '20-something whiners' do (i.e. they sit at home and watch tv/smoke pot/play videogames/etc rather than bettering themselves through education/etc).
- gehant 17y ago
  Entitlement involves having an inflated view of oneself - based on what's said in the article, sounds about right. Just seems odd that the author complains about not being able to find a job, yet takes zero responsibility for his situation. When I graduated college (into a shitty job market) many job offers were delayed, rescinded, or simply unavailable - I don't remember blaming everyone else.
  - pyre 17y ago
    I don't know that he's necessarily blaming the older generation so much as he's pointing out that the older generation made all sorts of promises such as, "Unless you get a university degree, you'll never get a good job" and "Once you have a university degree the job market is smooth sailin'" which are obviously not true. And now the older generation is complaining that the younger generations -- raised on such 'truths' and promises -- are saying "Where's this cushy job I was supposed to get with my college degree?"
olliesaunders 17y ago
I think it's pretty bad if their parents and teachers let "College boy" believe that for so long. This [TED talk](http://ted.com/talks/lang/eng/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_philosophy_of_success.html http://ted.com/talks/lang/eng/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentl...) might be of interest.

jasoncalacanis 17y ago

1. It's fairly clear a decent portion of the 20 somethings coming out of school now are entitled and don't work hard. 2. It's fairly clear that a lot of the 30 and 40 somethings out there came out of school, gave up their souls and worked for the man and regret it--in other words they weren't entitled enough. 3. It's fairly clear this story has nothing to do with the folks reading Hacker News who are a self-selected group of entrepreneurial folks who are hard working and self-motivated. Please move along, nothing to see here.

Elepsis 17y ago

The article linked to at the end (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/16/our_gimme_society_97908.html http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/16/our_gim...), interestingly, is complaining about a group of young people who are asking Congress for this list of "youth bailouts": Among other things, the coalition wants: free college tuition for low-income students who are willing to do volunteer work; the right to be covered in their parents' health insurance program until the age of 26; college loan-forgiveness programs for young people who agree to serve distressed communities after graduation; and micro loans for young entrepreneurs to start their own businesses. ... Frankly, those all sound like far smarter, better initiatives than propping up failing car manufacturers (which are, coincidentally, dominated by an older generation) or expanded government health coverage (which also disproportionately benefits older people). If that's what the 20-somethings of today "feel entitled" to, I feel pretty good about being a part of the group.

TomOfTTB 17y ago
I'm sorry but I disagree (I'm a 20-something but not for much longer so I really don't think it counts). Volunteer work is just that. You're supposed to volunteer. It's purpose is to show people the value of sacrifice. Doing volunteer work for Government compensation is called being a Government employee. Plus, as a former low income student I can tell you programs already exist that allow them to go to college for free and they're called Student Loans. With a part time job you can pay your living expenses and through grants and loans you can pay for school with very little problem. Health care's screwed up and it should be cheaper but I don't want to send the message that it's ok to live off your parents at 26 years of age. I don't have a problem with loan forgiveness for graduates that serve impoverished communities but that already exists for teachers and public servants. Finally, while micro-loans seem like a good idea it would almost certainly end in a huge cash drain with virtually no pay off. Programs like YC work because they educate while funding. A 22 year old with little work experience who thinks the answer is to turn to the Government for money stands almost no chance of creating a successful business imho (and as someone who knows his fair share of entrepreneurs I've found most will tell you their first venture failed)
- 17y ago

mynameishere 17y ago

I believe private insurance for 20-somethings is very cheap. Anyway, health care. I think old people understand that the system is kind-of, sort-of insolvent already, and that expanding it will probably push it over the cliff at a bad time for them. Being shrill and ranty is all well and good, but other people have their worries, too.

krschultz 17y ago
It's not.
- mynameishere 17y ago
  Yeah, well, doing 5 minutes of research shows me that plans in the 300-400/month range are available. http://www.ehealthinsurance.com http://www.ehealthinsurance.com ...the deductibles tend to be 2000-3000 dollars, but that's not unreasonable. If you have any data to provide, please do so, because chirpy little responses are just so much pollution.
  - Alex3917 17y ago
    Usually you choose your deductible and the amount of drug coverage you want. Higher deductibles mean cheaper monthly payments. If you are a male in your 20s and you are relatively healthy, you should be able to get good health coverage for ~125 a month if you are willing to do a really high deductible, say 10k. What this means is that you essentially only have health care if you get into a car accident or something, and for everything else you need to go into a walk-in clinic and pay yourself. If you want routine healthcare it should be closer to 200 month. It's more expensive for women, closer to 300 a month or more. If you are in less than perfect health then the rates go up, that is if you can get coverage at all. There are also certain programs that offer cheaper than normal health care because they use they are run by religious organizations who use the first amendment to get around certain regulations and fees.
  - quoderat 17y ago
    As I can tell you from past experience, 300-400 dollars a month is not a small amount for someone in their 20s with little to no income. In fact, that's a veritable sea of wealth. If it's a choice between eating and health insurance, which it was for me at times, people will choose eating. And having a roof over their heads.

edw519 17y ago

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Like OP, I busted my butt in pursuit of a better future, graduated with an BS in Math and an MBA just to work at Denny's for 18 months before finding my first programming job. But I can't imagine ever writing a piece like this. I have only one "understanding". No one is ever going to give me anything, so I just have to suck it up and get it for myself. If OP perseveres for what he wants as well as he whines, problem solved. Oh and by the way, I got my MBA and worked at Denny's in 1978, so STFU and get busy.

cakesy 17y ago
People who are really serious at work, get into jobs in the last year of uni or before. There are loads of programs at uni, that you can get involved in, to help businesses. Some of these even pay, i did one that involved stochastic modelling for a large car company. That is when you should get involved, companies don't want someone with no experience of how to act in the work place.
- yardie 17y ago
  I sort of agree, except schools are hosting job fairs and finding out no one is coming. Laying people off is hard emotionally. Except for corporate raiders, most companies don't like to do it. It depresses morale. Now imagine you've gone through 2-3,000 workers. But you're still shopping around for interns. The people that stay will see this, and you can guarantee there will be a great deal of sabotage. I remember when there was the contraction (dotbomb) in 1999-2000. I was in Uni and when I went to the job fairs (Engineering, Science, and business colleges all had their own) the amount of alumnus was overwhelming. Guys that had graduated many years before me were taking a 2-3 hour drive to this land-grant university hoping to get a shot. Using their alumni connections to get any job. You can imagine what it would be like for an undergrad, no experience, no references, a meager resume, and a start date months or years away. I remember when Intel gave new hires severance money $7-10,000. They weren't going to start for at least 6 months. But Intel just laid off ~4,000 people so no way these guys were getting in. The problem is those programs are also tied to the economy in general. When businesses aren't hiring paid positions, it is also unlikely they are looking for unpaid interns. And those university programs are meaningless if there are no where for them to go.

sjsivak 17y ago

Is anyone else really curious what sort of degree the author of this article has? I just graduated in May and almost everyone I know with a CS or engineering degree found jobs pretty easily. It was only the bottom of the barrel that struggled, and even most of those people still managed to find something in their field.

bdittmer 17y ago
I was wondering the exact same thing. That BA in a philosophy wasn't such a good idea after all, eh skippy? :D
- angstrom 17y ago
  I wouldn't say that. It's helping him expound upon the entitled morass that is his life. He'll have reached true zen when he realizes he could've saved $40K and said "Fuck You." to the world without college.
- ibsulon 17y ago
  Oddly enough, Philosophy is a poor choice here. When measured, philosophy graduates end up doing quite well on the median, possibly because it is a path to law school for many but also because it teaches many skills that end up being useful in the workplace. I suggest media arts. :)

californiaguy 17y ago

No, fuck this guy and his bullshit attitude. I'm 25 and I work over 12 hours a day in my technology services company and startup projects and I make a good god damn living for myself and so does everyone who puts in time for our company. It's his problem for believing the bullshit "adults" told him all his life. I knew from day one it was complete and utter nonsense. I bet he learned to blame others from them too. He should only blame himself for his lack of foresight. I also have a degree from a good university but the difference is I used that time as an opportunity to extend my social and professional network instead of counting on a fucking piece of paper to grant me magical opportunities. College is what it's always been: a club for the children of privilege to come together and make relationships. If you treat it as such, the value of an "education" is apparent the minute you step foot on campus. Don't waste your time going to a bullshit school without any smart or wealthy people. Just skip it unless you can go to a good school.

blhack 17y ago
What company do you work for, I'd love a job... See, the way it is where I work is that you better fucking have your laptop with you 24/7 because if one of the duct-tape and chicken-wire projects that you're required to support goes down...well then hollly shit it better be fixed like RIGHT. FREAKING. NOW. (never mind that these outages and crashes happen at companies that we are customers of...as in: they won't let me into their FTP server to fix it when it is just fucking dropping connections for no reason). But by golly, we better be glad to even HAVE a job! See, if we whine, or don't perform 100% all the time every day (even during our "vacation") there are a few hundred qualified applicants ready to take our job for the same pay and the same requirements (these people will burn out in a couple of months...again...and the cycle will continue). How did this start? Too many people were told that they were special. Too many degrees were given out, and now the job market is flooded with people. We have a surplus of "skills". How is it that people can't wrap their head around man-hours as a commodity? De beers knows this, they keep vaults full of diamonds locked away in a basement in NYC because they know that if they dump all those diamonds on the market, the price will get driven down. We've been screwed. I'm sorry, this isn't entitlement. This is facts. We've been screwed.

dlytle 17y ago

The older generation is bitter because they heavily invested according to a specific system of advancement, lived a good life because of it, and now these modern kids act like the system was always broken. The younger generation is bitter because they heavily invested according to a specific system of advancement, discovered that the rewards provided by the system have fundamentally changed, and blame the geezers for steering them down the wrong path. Neither generation wants to accept that the rules have changed and don't pay off the way they used to. That's why they're trying to find someone to blame. (Other than themselves, of course.)

baddox 17y ago

If he feels he's entitled simply because he worked hard and did what his parents told him, he clearly had (and has) some unrealistic expectations.

vitaminj 17y ago

If you go to the bank and deposit $20, you are entitled to get your $20 from the bank. If you fulfill your half of a contract, you are entitled to the other party’s performance. Well, if you enter into a verbal agreement with someone, you're not necessarily entitled to anything. When your parents told you to work hard at school and college with the promise that the world will take care of you, you didn't enter into a legitimate contract. So despite your whining, the world doesn't owe you shit.

calcnerd256 17y ago

He mentions generational justice. Does that even make sense? The older generation is going to die first, and then the one that was younger gets to take their turn. A revolving system like that doesn't have to have each pair of adjacent agents breaking even with respect to one another if the inequities are passed on. Well, I'm not saying I like the idea that we should be oppressed and then take our turn to oppress the next group; I'm just saying the notion of "generational justice" doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

chairface 17y ago
I think it makes sense. Some generations are bigger than others, and the bigger ones (like the one this guy is complaining about) can throw their weight around at the expense of the others. They carry more political weight. I, for instance, was born in a smaller generation. The baby boomers will control things for a decade or two more, and after they start dying, those younger than me will become dominant. I'm not really that concerned about this - I came to terms with it long ago. But it's still there, and I can understand if some people get bitter about things like this.

jsz0 17y ago

I don't feel all that entitled but I can understand why the "get good grades, goto a good college, have a wonderful life" crowd feels short changed. That message was drilled into their heads by teachers, family, friends, etc. I would probably feel entitled in that situation. You did all the "right things" and aren't seeing the promised benefits. No one mentioned sometimes it takes a while or just never happens. For any political issues like health care young people make themselves, and issues they care about, irrelevant by not voting in sufficiently large numbers. Again, the promise of democracy doesn't really live up to reality. I suspect it's just a common generational problem. In your 20's you're young enough to remember carefree youth but not successful enough yet to see your own life as living up to your expectations.

paul9290 17y ago

Why is this even getting voted up? This guy needs to join that girl in her silly lawsuit she filed against her college. I'd never hire her nor this whiner. Though maybe this is there way of thinking of the box and getting attention. They say any kind of attention is good(publicity), yet for me I still would not hire either!

brianmckenzie 17y ago

Everything your parents told you was a lie. Well, not really - raising children is fundamentally different than raising adults. Only adults can raise themselves. Do the drugs. Have underage sex. Steal a car. Get into a fistfight. After this, you will realize that life is not prescriptive/deterministic.

c00p3r 17y ago

He will say "Thanks for that" to his parents when he will be "thirty-something".

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

hooande 17y ago

So let me get this straight... people told you to study hard and over achieve, and now you're upset because things aren't as easy as you were promised? Welcome to the real world. Sad Fact #1: Everything people tell you isn't true. Even your parents, religious leaders and teachers will tell you things that aren't entirely true, mostly because they have their own motivations. Sad Fact #2: You can do everything the right way and still fail. Mostly because there are a lot of people who's parents also told them to study hard and overachieve, and by the nature of the system you can't all win big. I had to learn these lessons the hard way, too. Everyone does, sooner or later. Some people respond by taking another look around and wondering what else they don't know. Other people start to demand the respect they were promised without having yet accomplished anything impressive. If you're in that second group you have what they call a "sense of entitlement", no matter what the previous generation told you.

BearOfNH 17y ago

For every complaint about the benefits of seniority, networking, etc., there's an older guy (and usually it IS a guy) who is laid off so a cheaper kid can be hired to replace him. Of course if you've got a liberal arts degree from a diploma mill, that won't be you.

maximumwage 17y ago

What is the correct attitude that twenty-somethings should have? So far I have a few guesses: work on creating value for the world, be relentlessly resourceful, focus on cause and effect instead of whether something is "right" or "wrong", etc. Am I on the right track?

adrianwaj 17y ago
Learn how to look at yourself from the other side of the table and build bridges, take, but also give equally.

pj 17y ago

The problem is that twenty somethings don't vote and silver hairs do. I was watching footage from the town hall meetings around the country for the health care reform and noticed only one person without gray hair there and she was still old.

chubbard 17y ago

Knowing everything you know now. Would you not do your homework, participate in extracurricular activities, play sports, learn to play the piano, apply and attend a good college? If not then what? Do you feel you wasted your time doing those things?

squashed 17y ago
My article. Yes I would do it again. I would probably take Spanish instead of Latin. That would have been useful. All those things are good things to do in themselves--and many will be useful in the future. That said, It's a rough time for a lot of people graduating now--and it's ridiculous to see older people pretend that they're having trouble because they did something wrong.

kp212 17y ago

All I can say is, and I've been working over 8 years, if I was graduating college in this economy with 50+k in loans, no job, the worst UE rate in 20+ years, I'd be pissed as well. Not saying its right, not saying its wrong, just saying...

etravers 17y ago

And now a few words from a parent... We tell you these things so you will apply yourself and have what it takes when/if you get the opportunity. There is a diff between flipping burgers because [the market is tight| you're working through college| any other hurdle] and flipping burgers because you aren't qualified to do anything else. We remember questioning "when will I need to know X when I grow up?". Nine times out of ten they are teaching something completely useless, but it is something you have to work your way through. I tell my kids that the majority of what is taught in school is bullsh|t, but it is something they must/will do because if they do not they will have to answer to me. I tell them that the most important parts of school aren't remembering why some old dead guy crossed the Delaware. The most important things are learning how to solve problems and think for themselves. I tell them the controlling, idiotic teachers they are dealing with now are just like the controlling, idiotic bosses and coworkers they will be dealing with when they enter the job market so they better get used to it. I teach them to take responsibility for their own screw-ups and short comings and the importance of remaining focused and humble when they are the hero of the moment. It sounds as though some kids get the sugar and spice version. Now that you know the truth adjust accordingly and get on with it!