5 ms·

Alibaba F-1

104 points by nikunjk 12y ago

coreymgilmore 12y ago
Of note, the NASDAQ has lost year to date what Alibaba will be valued at. Interesting anomaly in the market. Also a tough time for a tech company to go public since the general marketplace seems pretty overpriced as it is these days. The fact that Alibaba is an established business with history should help it perform well on IPO day.
rdl 12y ago
Only raising $1B? Or is that a placeholder? I would have assumed more like $20-30B.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- presty 12y ago
  From http://recode.net/2014/05/06/chinese-internet-giant-alibaba-finally-files-for-ipo/ http://recode.net/2014/05/06/chinese-internet-giant-alibaba-... "In its initial document, Alibaba said it was raising $1 billion, but that is only a placeholder and will surely change. Demand from investors is likely to be high and analysts have estimated that Alibaba would raise $15 billion or more at a valuation of close to $200 billion."
  - boomzilla 12y ago
    200B valuation is actually very reasonable: it's PE would be roughly 35 compared to Amazon's 400. Now the big question which I have not been able to figure out from their S1 is why they have so much more margin compared to Amazon, given the two are operating more or less in the same space. Is that because US is a free (and more efficient) market, where China has more artificial barriers for other players?
    - instoftech 12y ago
      Alibaba's model (in eCommerce) is very different from Amazon's. Alibaba is only the middle-man platform, and doesn't keep its own inventory or warehouse.
    - tormeh 12y ago
      I think Alibaba does more bulk shipments, connecting manufacturers. Alibabas' customers are businesses, Amazon is a consumer company. They are not comparable at all. Searching for pens on Alibaba gives you offers with minimum shipment of 500 pens.
      - khc 12y ago
        That's only talking about the Alibaba site itself. They own several gigantic websites that in the consumer business (taobao, t-mall, etc).
TrainedMonkey 12y ago
"We operate a micro-finance business that provides micro loans to small- and medium-sized enterprises who are sellers on our wholesale and retail marketplaces, or our SME loan business. We extend micro loans through our lending vehicles licensed by the relevant local governments in China." Turns out reading these is actually useful, I had no idea they issued microloans.
- alaskamiller 12y ago
  What they mean is AliPay - http://global.alipay.com/ospay/home.htm http://global.alipay.com/ospay/home.htm Jack Ma spoke on it last year at Stanford - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRp4jiJed3c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRp4jiJed3c My prediction: Alibaba is on a path to take over the world. In the next 5 years the startup and silicon valley landscape will change dramatically with the introduction of Alibaba as a major player stateside. Yahoo will be bought, all these spree acquisitions and product dev based on borrowed time and money (ironically from Alibaba) is to walk away with as much money from Alibaba when that inevitable moment happens. Maybe that's why Marissa Meyer has such confidence. If you work on anything tangential and remotely related to ecommerce, enterprise, or logistics, at scale--the type of scale that can actually impress a man that has the indirect democratic approval of a a nation composed of a billion people--you now have an additional avenue for exit aside from Amazon. Alibaba will become an American household name overnight, that took 15 years to happen.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    That's quite the prediction. I have been following Alibaba for a while now and it is an incredible phenomenon. What you predict might very well come true. Reading up on Jack Ma is time well spent. Didn't he retire from Alibaba? He's listed as the CEO on the F-1 so I presume not but he announced his intention to step down quite publicly at some point.
    - presty 12y ago
      He (Jack Ma) stepped down and Jonathan Lu is now CEO http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-17/alibaba-ceo-lu-rises-from-holiday-inn-job-to-ma-confidant-tech.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-17/alibaba-ceo-lu-rise...
lifeisstillgood 12y ago
It failed to list in Hong Kong after HK said the partners could not retain control of board nominations after the sale """The negotiations foundered after regulators decided they would not allow Alibaba's partners to retain control over board nominations, maintaining that all shareholders should be treated equally, sources said.""" [+] So does that mean that the SEC is going to allow them control? Does that mean HKSE is better governed than NYSE? [+] http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N0HL10H20130925?irpc=932 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N0HL10H20130925?irpc...
- misterbwong 12y ago
  I believe this has to do with the inability to issue non-preferred (non-voting) stock on the HKSE, something that is allowed on NYSE.
  - lifeisstillgood 12y ago
    But ... why? Why should one company allow voting with all shares and another not? Seems to me that's turning comparable markets into apples v oranges. The price of two shares then are not just based on strengths of companies but whether shareholders can influence the company too. I would rather have two markets in that case.
- nknighthb 12y ago
  US securities law is about what level of transparency is required of publicly-traded companies. It doesn't try to dictate how a corporation is run, only what information it is required to disclose. Share classes with different voting rights are nothing new. Recent high-profile examples are Google and Facebook, but there are myriad other examples, like Dow Jones prior to the Murdoch takeover, Comcast, and Berkshire Hathaway. As long as it's disclosed, publicly-traded companies in the US can be structured pretty much however they want.
jacquesm 12y ago
At least compared to the valuations of instagram, pinterest and so on this one actually makes sense.
- tokenadult 12y ago
  Jacques, Shakespeare would call that "damning with faint praise." It does seem to me that Alibaba has an actual underlying business with real business value, but I wonder about the transparency, even with listing in the United States, of a company that does most of its business in China. We shall see what value the market sets on the company at first, and how that works out over time.
  - tanzam75 12y ago
    Actually, the Alibaba that is being listed does not have an underlying business. The stock represents ownership of a Cayman Islands variable interest entity that has a contractual claim on the actual Alibaba's profits. This is not a new trick. It's a longstanding loophole in the Chinese law barring foreign ownership of certain companies. But it's also not exactly risk-free: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/i-p-o-revives-debate-over-a-chinese-structure http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/i-p-o-revives-debate-...
    - rahimnathwani 12y ago
      Dan Harris wrote some interesting articles about the VIE structures (aka Sina structure). If you're interested, a good place to start is here: http://www.chinalawblog.com/2013/06/buying-into-a-china-vie-what-me-worry.html http://www.chinalawblog.com/2013/06/buying-into-a-china-vie-...
muad_dib 12y ago
here is source that can be annotated http://www.twomargins.com/documents/15 http://www.twomargins.com/documents/15 as referenced here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7707505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7707505
Fasebook 12y ago
News on my HN?
piocan 12y ago
Btw. Alibaba Group is so much more, not only one site, it is Amazon of China! http://www.examinechina.com/blog/alibaba-group/ http://www.examinechina.com/blog/alibaba-group/ - infographic w/ their other ventures (Alipay, clon of paypal etc.)

104 points by nikunjk 12y ago

Of note, the NASDAQ has lost year to date what Alibaba will be valued at. Interesting anomaly in the market. Also a tough time for a tech company to go public since the general marketplace seems pretty overpriced as it is these days. The fact that Alibaba is an established business with history should help it perform well on IPO day.

rdl 12y ago

Only raising $1B? Or is that a placeholder? I would have assumed more like $20-30B.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
presty 12y ago
From http://recode.net/2014/05/06/chinese-internet-giant-alibaba-finally-files-for-ipo/ http://recode.net/2014/05/06/chinese-internet-giant-alibaba-... "In its initial document, Alibaba said it was raising $1 billion, but that is only a placeholder and will surely change. Demand from investors is likely to be high and analysts have estimated that Alibaba would raise $15 billion or more at a valuation of close to $200 billion."
- boomzilla 12y ago
  200B valuation is actually very reasonable: it's PE would be roughly 35 compared to Amazon's 400. Now the big question which I have not been able to figure out from their S1 is why they have so much more margin compared to Amazon, given the two are operating more or less in the same space. Is that because US is a free (and more efficient) market, where China has more artificial barriers for other players?
  - instoftech 12y ago
    Alibaba's model (in eCommerce) is very different from Amazon's. Alibaba is only the middle-man platform, and doesn't keep its own inventory or warehouse.
  - tormeh 12y ago
    I think Alibaba does more bulk shipments, connecting manufacturers. Alibabas' customers are businesses, Amazon is a consumer company. They are not comparable at all. Searching for pens on Alibaba gives you offers with minimum shipment of 500 pens.
    - khc 12y ago
      That's only talking about the Alibaba site itself. They own several gigantic websites that in the consumer business (taobao, t-mall, etc).

TrainedMonkey 12y ago

"We operate a micro-finance business that provides micro loans to small- and medium-sized enterprises who are sellers on our wholesale and retail marketplaces, or our SME loan business. We extend micro loans through our lending vehicles licensed by the relevant local governments in China." Turns out reading these is actually useful, I had no idea they issued microloans.

alaskamiller 12y ago
What they mean is AliPay - http://global.alipay.com/ospay/home.htm http://global.alipay.com/ospay/home.htm Jack Ma spoke on it last year at Stanford - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRp4jiJed3c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRp4jiJed3c My prediction: Alibaba is on a path to take over the world. In the next 5 years the startup and silicon valley landscape will change dramatically with the introduction of Alibaba as a major player stateside. Yahoo will be bought, all these spree acquisitions and product dev based on borrowed time and money (ironically from Alibaba) is to walk away with as much money from Alibaba when that inevitable moment happens. Maybe that's why Marissa Meyer has such confidence. If you work on anything tangential and remotely related to ecommerce, enterprise, or logistics, at scale--the type of scale that can actually impress a man that has the indirect democratic approval of a a nation composed of a billion people--you now have an additional avenue for exit aside from Amazon. Alibaba will become an American household name overnight, that took 15 years to happen.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  That's quite the prediction. I have been following Alibaba for a while now and it is an incredible phenomenon. What you predict might very well come true. Reading up on Jack Ma is time well spent. Didn't he retire from Alibaba? He's listed as the CEO on the F-1 so I presume not but he announced his intention to step down quite publicly at some point.
  - presty 12y ago
    He (Jack Ma) stepped down and Jonathan Lu is now CEO http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-17/alibaba-ceo-lu-rises-from-holiday-inn-job-to-ma-confidant-tech.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-17/alibaba-ceo-lu-rise...

lifeisstillgood 12y ago

It failed to list in Hong Kong after HK said the partners could not retain control of board nominations after the sale """The negotiations foundered after regulators decided they would not allow Alibaba's partners to retain control over board nominations, maintaining that all shareholders should be treated equally, sources said.""" [+] So does that mean that the SEC is going to allow them control? Does that mean HKSE is better governed than NYSE? [+] http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N0HL10H20130925?irpc=932 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N0HL10H20130925?irpc...

misterbwong 12y ago
I believe this has to do with the inability to issue non-preferred (non-voting) stock on the HKSE, something that is allowed on NYSE.
- lifeisstillgood 12y ago
  But ... why? Why should one company allow voting with all shares and another not? Seems to me that's turning comparable markets into apples v oranges. The price of two shares then are not just based on strengths of companies but whether shareholders can influence the company too. I would rather have two markets in that case.
nknighthb 12y ago
US securities law is about what level of transparency is required of publicly-traded companies. It doesn't try to dictate how a corporation is run, only what information it is required to disclose. Share classes with different voting rights are nothing new. Recent high-profile examples are Google and Facebook, but there are myriad other examples, like Dow Jones prior to the Murdoch takeover, Comcast, and Berkshire Hathaway. As long as it's disclosed, publicly-traded companies in the US can be structured pretty much however they want.

jacquesm 12y ago

At least compared to the valuations of instagram, pinterest and so on this one actually makes sense.

tokenadult 12y ago
Jacques, Shakespeare would call that "damning with faint praise." It does seem to me that Alibaba has an actual underlying business with real business value, but I wonder about the transparency, even with listing in the United States, of a company that does most of its business in China. We shall see what value the market sets on the company at first, and how that works out over time.
- tanzam75 12y ago
  Actually, the Alibaba that is being listed does not have an underlying business. The stock represents ownership of a Cayman Islands variable interest entity that has a contractual claim on the actual Alibaba's profits. This is not a new trick. It's a longstanding loophole in the Chinese law barring foreign ownership of certain companies. But it's also not exactly risk-free: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/i-p-o-revives-debate-over-a-chinese-structure http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/i-p-o-revives-debate-...
  - rahimnathwani 12y ago
    Dan Harris wrote some interesting articles about the VIE structures (aka Sina structure). If you're interested, a good place to start is here: http://www.chinalawblog.com/2013/06/buying-into-a-china-vie-what-me-worry.html http://www.chinalawblog.com/2013/06/buying-into-a-china-vie-...

muad_dib 12y ago

here is source that can be annotated http://www.twomargins.com/documents/15 http://www.twomargins.com/documents/15 as referenced here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7707505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7707505

Fasebook 12y ago

News on my HN?

piocan 12y ago

Btw. Alibaba Group is so much more, not only one site, it is Amazon of China! http://www.examinechina.com/blog/alibaba-group/ http://www.examinechina.com/blog/alibaba-group/ - infographic w/ their other ventures (Alipay, clon of paypal etc.)