4 ms·

It's interesting how the title "How to talk to an open source project as a large scale or interesting user" implies that the onus is on the user to approach the

It's interesting how the title "How to talk to an open source project as a large scale or interesting user" implies that the onus is on the user to approach the open source project in the correct manner. It might be more productive to think about "How an open source project should talk to a large scale or interesting user". I was deploying open source software in large corporations more than a decade ago[1] and I formed the impression that open source projects could do a LOT more to engage with and support their users. It sometimes felt like the developers just didn't care about users. Documentation was often sorely lacking[2] and "support" typically came in the form of mailing lists that were full of users trying to figure out how the software worked, and swapping advice and tips - often a case of the blind leading the blind. The end result was that corporate users would sometimes choose commercial software, despite the cost, because it came with decent support and/or had functionality that the open source alternative lacked. These days, I think that a product manager is an essential part of any open source project team. 1: e.g. http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/tomcat-users/200009.mbox/%3COFF2F061DD.C2B7EB05-ON00256960.004C94C4%40srv.uk.deuba.com%3E http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/tomcat-users/200009... 2: e.g. https://www.mail-archive.com/linux-raid@vger.rutgers.edu/msg00947.html https://www.mail-archive.com/linux-raid@vger.rutgers.edu/msg...

SoftwareMaven 13y ago
While I agree with you in general, after all, what's the point of building something if people can't use it, it misses the point of this article: if you have an interesting use case, particularly one that aligns very well with the goals of the project, you need to let the project know somehow. The developers are not psychic.
x0x0 13y ago
your comments are, bluntly, massively entitled. One of the open source tradeoffs is that they often come with slightly more install/configuration work; in trade for usage freedom, the ability to modify the source, and of course, zero required cash outlay. I share ml code on cran because I wrote it and I'm happy to have other people use it; that doesn't come with a requirement for me to spend more than zero time helping them do so and when I do, it's because I happen to feel like it. Telling me you're doing something interesting (to me!) will often help interest me in helping you. The massive wave of demanding users that want hand holding typically don't even get a reply from me.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  >your comments are, bluntly, massively entitled. Really? I see no entitlement, merely a very common annoyance that FOSS projects are traditionally very bad at support (and your frankly, shitty, attitude is part of that, and part of the reason many enterprises consider community open source projects to be absolute last resort) If I had a penny for every time I had a question ignored in IRC or mailing list ghost towns, I'd be running my own Y Combinator by this point. Those that will actually take the time to help users out, or projects with sufficient and good enough documentation that the "hand holding" as you put it, isn't necessary, are like refreshing oases in a vast desert.
  - x0x0 13y ago
    You aren't entitled to my time for free. Deal.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      This entire exhange is a case study in why enterprise (and heck, even regular end users) don't like FOSS. Reasonable requests (not demands, requests) for basic things like documentation and functionality are met with snark and hostility. Thanks for contributing to the problem, I suppose.
      - x0x0 13y ago
        said the user unsatisfied with something for nothing and now demanding personal support! a bargain (for you) and ps -- just so we're clear, the package I've contributed includes the mandatory per-user function help (each with runnable code examples), plus a 10+ page vignette discussing common usage, implemented inference algorithms, and parameter setting suggestions. The vast majority of email I get starts with the implicit sentence [I'm a lazy prick who can't be arsed to read any of the docs, runnable code examples, or surrounding discussion. So if you could answer questions from someone who couldn't do the briefest amount of research that would be fabulous.] Those emails are closely followed in quantity by the emails best summarized as "I'm gonna be super vague here but something didn't work. I neither wish to share the exact invocation of your package nor data, and certainly neither of those without prompting, but something didn't meet my unknown expectations and I want you to fix it now!"
dmourati 13y ago
Have you considered that you may have chosen the wrong open source projects? Also, Open Source has come a long way in the past decade. Maybe it is time to revisit that initial impression?

SoftwareMaven 13y ago

While I agree with you in general, after all, what's the point of building something if people can't use it, it misses the point of this article: if you have an interesting use case, particularly one that aligns very well with the goals of the project, you need to let the project know somehow. The developers are not psychic.

x0x0 13y ago

your comments are, bluntly, massively entitled. One of the open source tradeoffs is that they often come with slightly more install/configuration work; in trade for usage freedom, the ability to modify the source, and of course, zero required cash outlay. I share ml code on cran because I wrote it and I'm happy to have other people use it; that doesn't come with a requirement for me to spend more than zero time helping them do so and when I do, it's because I happen to feel like it. Telling me you're doing something interesting (to me!) will often help interest me in helping you. The massive wave of demanding users that want hand holding typically don't even get a reply from me.

Karunamon 13y ago
>your comments are, bluntly, massively entitled. Really? I see no entitlement, merely a very common annoyance that FOSS projects are traditionally very bad at support (and your frankly, shitty, attitude is part of that, and part of the reason many enterprises consider community open source projects to be absolute last resort) If I had a penny for every time I had a question ignored in IRC or mailing list ghost towns, I'd be running my own Y Combinator by this point. Those that will actually take the time to help users out, or projects with sufficient and good enough documentation that the "hand holding" as you put it, isn't necessary, are like refreshing oases in a vast desert.
- x0x0 13y ago
  You aren't entitled to my time for free. Deal.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    This entire exhange is a case study in why enterprise (and heck, even regular end users) don't like FOSS. Reasonable requests (not demands, requests) for basic things like documentation and functionality are met with snark and hostility. Thanks for contributing to the problem, I suppose.
    - x0x0 13y ago
      said the user unsatisfied with something for nothing and now demanding personal support! a bargain (for you) and ps -- just so we're clear, the package I've contributed includes the mandatory per-user function help (each with runnable code examples), plus a 10+ page vignette discussing common usage, implemented inference algorithms, and parameter setting suggestions. The vast majority of email I get starts with the implicit sentence [I'm a lazy prick who can't be arsed to read any of the docs, runnable code examples, or surrounding discussion. So if you could answer questions from someone who couldn't do the briefest amount of research that would be fabulous.] Those emails are closely followed in quantity by the emails best summarized as "I'm gonna be super vague here but something didn't work. I neither wish to share the exact invocation of your package nor data, and certainly neither of those without prompting, but something didn't meet my unknown expectations and I want you to fix it now!"

dmourati 13y ago

Have you considered that you may have chosen the wrong open source projects? Also, Open Source has come a long way in the past decade. Maybe it is time to revisit that initial impression?