5 ms·

Ask HN: Review my Startup -- wokhei.com

20 points by JohnIdol 17y ago

javery 17y ago
How is this different then all the other logo creation sites and services out there? How is it better than using 99designs, etc?
- midnightmonster 17y ago
  You put in your info once, you don't get to give feedback and request changes, you get one logo at the end--like it or not, and you get it in 24 hours. These points all make it different from most logo services. Better is another question. I didn't find the difference difficult to glean from the site, but it wasn't obvious to at least a couple people here, so maybe OP still has some work to do here as far as positioning.
  - JohnIdol 17y ago
    I believe you summarize perfectly the main differences. I may add that as you correctly point out we don't wanna be better than the others or steal their customers, we're just different - since there's no service which does exactly what we do (good or bad, your pick). We ideally offer a conceptually different service, covering needs (as said in some other comment around) of a category of people who are craving for results and don't wanna bother with revisions and complicated workflows. Or at least that's the idea :-)
ErrantX 17y ago
You can access our services only through a Google Account. Why? Because virtually everyone has a Google account and this way you don't have to remember yet another password. I see the logic in using OpenID for signin. But only google? Defi9nitely not everyone has a google account (though perhaps your target audience will have). Also what about the people that do not want to use Google's services (there are plenty). And if you dont have a Google account it's a pain to go elsewhere - sign up - then come back. However.... www.clickpass.com will do exactly the same thing and offers a much wider range of logins :) (HN here uses it). YOu might want to look into that - I doubt it will take much to switch to using Clickpass (as the openid sequence for them is similar to Google I believe)
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  That's why the word virtually is there :-) Anyway being this a beta release that's exactly the kind of feedback we're looking for - definitely something worth looking into - thanks!
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    haha fair enough :) I do like the idea - have you seen sites like 99designs? How do you stack up next to them - not competing / different market, or are you a better implementation. I like the "fun" on the site btw :) made me smile to browse around.
    - matteo 17y ago
      thanks, we saw that question coming :) We tried to answer in the page about "what is different about wokhei" with the following 4 points: -BEGIN- What is different about Wokhei: Wokhei is not about endless and complicated revision workflows. Wokhei is about entrusting designers with the power of surpising the customer. Wokhei is a game of creativity for both the customer who requests the logo and the designer who makes it. Wokhei is a fresh and experimental approach to logo design! -END- maybe it should be more visibile cause there have been already a couple of similar questions. midnightmonster also made a good point above.
      - jcrocholl 17y ago
        Run a spell checker on all your content. The results will be surpising. ;-)
        JohnIdol 17y ago
        ahah - I believe you're right
    - JohnIdol 17y ago
      glad to know it was fun to browse around :)
davidw 17y ago
I'd be interested in a nice logo for www.hecl.org , but I would need a BSD open source license for it. I would be willing to link to you guys, but probably not shell out the full price for it, since it's an open source project. Let me know if you're interested.
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  Would the Wokhei Limited License cover your needs? You can use the logo for free as is as long as you credit Wokhei.
  - davidw 17y ago
    I read it, and I don't think so, because I want the logo to be redistributable under the same terms as Hecl itself. If it's a problem... no problem:-) No harm in asking though!
    - JohnIdol 17y ago
      At the moment this is not possible but you do raise a great point - we were not thinking about licensing in these terms. It's definitely great feedback and something to seriously think about - thanks!
midnightmonster 17y ago
I have advised people to use cheap logo services as a way of getting a decent first draft--something they can use temporarily or take to a more involved designer for improvement. If I pay for a logo (cheap, sure--but also with no opportunity for feedback) I expect to get (1) ownership, not a license and (2) the source files so some other designer I hire can improve it (or make it suck worse, or just make it black and white--doesn't matter, it's my logo). Re: ownership, if you want to require me to agree to let you display it in your gallery, that's reasonable. (Even then, if you get pushback, consider an option to buy my way out of that. If someone's that concerned, just take their money and put the next one in the gallery.)
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  spot on, very good points - at current stage we have discussions going on the exact topics you cover. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
k0ban 17y ago
I do represent your target audience, looking for a logo designer right now. Besides login issue, already mentioned here, i think the video is too long, you should fit into 30-40 seconds with real example. I am missing portfolio, so can't estimate quality of the service you are providing. Anyway I submitted request, will see what will be an outcome.
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  For now (just released the first beta) we only have a slideshow on the home page - we're working on a gallery though as it's definitely needed. Good luck with your logo! :)
  - k0ban 17y ago
    Slideshow is better than video, and out of 20-30 logos I might like just one. Comparing to logoworks quite low rate. I wouldn't submit information if I'd saw this portfolio. Keeping in mind that you need iterations and several logos to choose from, I don't expect something valuable for me as a result. Of course we will see, but still ... I wouldn't use this service if found it not on HN. Have some idea for you. You have two types of services: 1. Draw it by yourself - which works, for some people 2. Services where you find designer, who will do it for you. But first you need to find a right designer. This is done or by looking thru portfolio of designers or by contest, where designers might or might not participate. So the problem is to find a right designer. This could be done by asking me to choose several logos to identify what I am looking for a match to the designer that works in that style. It will save my time to find a right person (since I can't even formulate how the logo should look like) and save designer's time.
    - JohnIdol 17y ago
      Your point is perfectly understandable and certainly represents a wide slice of the market - which happens not to be the slice of the market we are ideally targeting. We don't want to steal customers from logoworks, 99designs or other similar (very useful & well thought) services; we are trying something new here, pursuing an experimental approach to logo design, limiting to an extreme the user input in order to force the customer to get creative with tags - which could open the door to hopefully surprising results from our designers. That's the deed - if you're not quite happy you roll the dice and go again if you want, it's free. Along the lines of the stir-fried culinary metaphor, we'd like to offer quality stuff on-the-go. This comes from the need of a category of people (and you can pull myself in) who don't wanna bother going through revisions and all that jazz. This might not be the right service for you, and we won't try to convince you otherwise. If you're craving for Chinese take-away you won't go to the French restaurant. If you need a twitter account you won't get yourself a blog. And so forth. Said so, your feedback and ideas are certainly constructive and valuable - thanks! P.S. The video is known problem (thanks for pointing out). You not liking the logos in the slideshow ... given the subjectivity of the topic it's bound to be a discussion with no end! :-)
erikwiffin 17y ago
You need need need a portfolio. So far all I can see is one logo (yours) and it's not really the branding I'm looking for. A portfolio would reassure me that you have a broader range, or that you excel at doing one kind of logo really well.
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  at the moment there's a slideshow of logos on the home page - but I do get your point, there's gonna a be gallery we'll roll out on future iterations
- tarelli 17y ago
  there is an animated screen with logos passing by, I supposed that was somehow their portfolio even if there is no mention of the companies involved. also I read about a gallery, maybe at some stage some of the logos will endup there.
odvious 17y ago
Hate to be a stickler, but: "He will prepare your logo in 24hrs!" should be "They will prepare your logo in 24hrs!"
- tarelli 17y ago
  looks like it's only one chosen designer that will prepare the logo
  - akeefer 17y ago
    But you might want to leave open the possibility that designer could be female (and despite what old-school official grammar books might say, in 2009 I don't think it's acceptable to use "he" for a gender-neutral pronoun, and "they" is much less awkward than "he/she")
ckinnan 17y ago
I've used LogoWorks a few times with success. In every case some revision was required...most logos are a committee effort so users want to be able to revise them...it is also nice to get a couple different versions with the understanding that you can choose to have one polished into a final logo. Some site feedback: the monitor with rotating logos on the homepage is somewhat confusing. It looks like there are buttons but it is just a graphic. The video is cute but it is a little drawn out. The site branding is strong but may be too unprofessional for the market of people looking to pay money for a logo. I don't know if focusing it on "web 2.0 logos" or something might help refine and differentiate the site. Overall it looks cool-- good luck!
symptic 17y ago
Your video is long and boring. Make it quick and simple; to the point.
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  point taken - that is a common pain point. thanks for the honesty
run4yourlives 17y ago
I'm not going to comment on the site itself, but I've read through the comments here and would like to put something forward: You aren't focusing enough on making this a win for your customer. I'm a potential customer. Right now, I see a process that limits my input to next to nothing, won't allow me to make revisions, and after all that, I don't even own the thing. As a comparison, for $50 more I can get 4 concepts, two revision rounds and actual ownership at Logoworks. To me, the choice is clear. I don't want or mean to disparage you but that is the current mindset of your potential customer. All I see are wins for you, but not many for them. I think you need to fix that ratio if you are to be successful. Good luck to you!
aw3c2 17y ago
Completely Javascript reliant and (for me) painfully slow (the site loads, then the content flickers into view. A good half second I guess) if I enable it. Opera 10 beta on Linux. edit: Actually it takes 4 seconds for the content to appear. And it borks my navigation-back. I have to press back at least 2 times to actually get back. Without Javascript, this is your site: http://s1.image.gd/o/84/84730e851a4074e1040dcbe659d8f929989a5afe.png http://s1.image.gd/o/84/84730e851a4074e1040dcbe659d8f929989a...
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  you're right - being developed in GWT the site is completely javascript dependent. The problem seems to be that with javascript disabled you're still getting the content in somewhat of a mangled form --> you shouldn't be getting any content (just a message), this is obviously not working. On performance - it's laoding up pretty good on all the browser we've tested, then again we didn't test on any of the environment you refer to, which makes your feedback much appreciated. Thanks!

20 points by JohnIdol 17y ago

How is this different then all the other logo creation sites and services out there? How is it better than using 99designs, etc?

midnightmonster 17y ago
You put in your info once, you don't get to give feedback and request changes, you get one logo at the end--like it or not, and you get it in 24 hours. These points all make it different from most logo services. Better is another question. I didn't find the difference difficult to glean from the site, but it wasn't obvious to at least a couple people here, so maybe OP still has some work to do here as far as positioning.
- JohnIdol 17y ago
  I believe you summarize perfectly the main differences. I may add that as you correctly point out we don't wanna be better than the others or steal their customers, we're just different - since there's no service which does exactly what we do (good or bad, your pick). We ideally offer a conceptually different service, covering needs (as said in some other comment around) of a category of people who are craving for results and don't wanna bother with revisions and complicated workflows. Or at least that's the idea :-)

ErrantX 17y ago

You can access our services only through a Google Account. Why? Because virtually everyone has a Google account and this way you don't have to remember yet another password. I see the logic in using OpenID for signin. But only google? Defi9nitely not everyone has a google account (though perhaps your target audience will have). Also what about the people that do not want to use Google's services (there are plenty). And if you dont have a Google account it's a pain to go elsewhere - sign up - then come back. However.... www.clickpass.com will do exactly the same thing and offers a much wider range of logins :) (HN here uses it). YOu might want to look into that - I doubt it will take much to switch to using Clickpass (as the openid sequence for them is similar to Google I believe)

JohnIdol 17y ago
That's why the word virtually is there :-) Anyway being this a beta release that's exactly the kind of feedback we're looking for - definitely something worth looking into - thanks!
- ErrantX 17y ago
  haha fair enough :) I do like the idea - have you seen sites like 99designs? How do you stack up next to them - not competing / different market, or are you a better implementation. I like the "fun" on the site btw :) made me smile to browse around.
  - matteo 17y ago
    thanks, we saw that question coming :) We tried to answer in the page about "what is different about wokhei" with the following 4 points: -BEGIN- What is different about Wokhei: Wokhei is not about endless and complicated revision workflows. Wokhei is about entrusting designers with the power of surpising the customer. Wokhei is a game of creativity for both the customer who requests the logo and the designer who makes it. Wokhei is a fresh and experimental approach to logo design! -END- maybe it should be more visibile cause there have been already a couple of similar questions. midnightmonster also made a good point above.
    - jcrocholl 17y ago
      Run a spell checker on all your content. The results will be surpising. ;-)
      - JohnIdol 17y ago
        ahah - I believe you're right
  - JohnIdol 17y ago
    glad to know it was fun to browse around :)

davidw 17y ago

I'd be interested in a nice logo for www.hecl.org , but I would need a BSD open source license for it. I would be willing to link to you guys, but probably not shell out the full price for it, since it's an open source project. Let me know if you're interested.

JohnIdol 17y ago
Would the Wokhei Limited License cover your needs? You can use the logo for free as is as long as you credit Wokhei.
- davidw 17y ago
  I read it, and I don't think so, because I want the logo to be redistributable under the same terms as Hecl itself. If it's a problem... no problem:-) No harm in asking though!
  - JohnIdol 17y ago
    At the moment this is not possible but you do raise a great point - we were not thinking about licensing in these terms. It's definitely great feedback and something to seriously think about - thanks!

midnightmonster 17y ago

I have advised people to use cheap logo services as a way of getting a decent first draft--something they can use temporarily or take to a more involved designer for improvement. If I pay for a logo (cheap, sure--but also with no opportunity for feedback) I expect to get (1) ownership, not a license and (2) the source files so some other designer I hire can improve it (or make it suck worse, or just make it black and white--doesn't matter, it's my logo). Re: ownership, if you want to require me to agree to let you display it in your gallery, that's reasonable. (Even then, if you get pushback, consider an option to buy my way out of that. If someone's that concerned, just take their money and put the next one in the gallery.)

JohnIdol 17y ago
spot on, very good points - at current stage we have discussions going on the exact topics you cover. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

k0ban 17y ago

I do represent your target audience, looking for a logo designer right now. Besides login issue, already mentioned here, i think the video is too long, you should fit into 30-40 seconds with real example. I am missing portfolio, so can't estimate quality of the service you are providing. Anyway I submitted request, will see what will be an outcome.

JohnIdol 17y ago
For now (just released the first beta) we only have a slideshow on the home page - we're working on a gallery though as it's definitely needed. Good luck with your logo! :)
- k0ban 17y ago
  Slideshow is better than video, and out of 20-30 logos I might like just one. Comparing to logoworks quite low rate. I wouldn't submit information if I'd saw this portfolio. Keeping in mind that you need iterations and several logos to choose from, I don't expect something valuable for me as a result. Of course we will see, but still ... I wouldn't use this service if found it not on HN. Have some idea for you. You have two types of services: 1. Draw it by yourself - which works, for some people 2. Services where you find designer, who will do it for you. But first you need to find a right designer. This is done or by looking thru portfolio of designers or by contest, where designers might or might not participate. So the problem is to find a right designer. This could be done by asking me to choose several logos to identify what I am looking for a match to the designer that works in that style. It will save my time to find a right person (since I can't even formulate how the logo should look like) and save designer's time.
  - JohnIdol 17y ago
    Your point is perfectly understandable and certainly represents a wide slice of the market - which happens not to be the slice of the market we are ideally targeting. We don't want to steal customers from logoworks, 99designs or other similar (very useful & well thought) services; we are trying something new here, pursuing an experimental approach to logo design, limiting to an extreme the user input in order to force the customer to get creative with tags - which could open the door to hopefully surprising results from our designers. That's the deed - if you're not quite happy you roll the dice and go again if you want, it's free. Along the lines of the stir-fried culinary metaphor, we'd like to offer quality stuff on-the-go. This comes from the need of a category of people (and you can pull myself in) who don't wanna bother going through revisions and all that jazz. This might not be the right service for you, and we won't try to convince you otherwise. If you're craving for Chinese take-away you won't go to the French restaurant. If you need a twitter account you won't get yourself a blog. And so forth. Said so, your feedback and ideas are certainly constructive and valuable - thanks! P.S. The video is known problem (thanks for pointing out). You not liking the logos in the slideshow ... given the subjectivity of the topic it's bound to be a discussion with no end! :-)

erikwiffin 17y ago

You need need need a portfolio. So far all I can see is one logo (yours) and it's not really the branding I'm looking for. A portfolio would reassure me that you have a broader range, or that you excel at doing one kind of logo really well.

JohnIdol 17y ago
at the moment there's a slideshow of logos on the home page - but I do get your point, there's gonna a be gallery we'll roll out on future iterations
tarelli 17y ago
there is an animated screen with logos passing by, I supposed that was somehow their portfolio even if there is no mention of the companies involved. also I read about a gallery, maybe at some stage some of the logos will endup there.

odvious 17y ago

Hate to be a stickler, but: "He will prepare your logo in 24hrs!" should be "They will prepare your logo in 24hrs!"

tarelli 17y ago
looks like it's only one chosen designer that will prepare the logo
- akeefer 17y ago
  But you might want to leave open the possibility that designer could be female (and despite what old-school official grammar books might say, in 2009 I don't think it's acceptable to use "he" for a gender-neutral pronoun, and "they" is much less awkward than "he/she")

ckinnan 17y ago

I've used LogoWorks a few times with success. In every case some revision was required...most logos are a committee effort so users want to be able to revise them...it is also nice to get a couple different versions with the understanding that you can choose to have one polished into a final logo. Some site feedback: the monitor with rotating logos on the homepage is somewhat confusing. It looks like there are buttons but it is just a graphic. The video is cute but it is a little drawn out. The site branding is strong but may be too unprofessional for the market of people looking to pay money for a logo. I don't know if focusing it on "web 2.0 logos" or something might help refine and differentiate the site. Overall it looks cool-- good luck!

symptic 17y ago

Your video is long and boring. Make it quick and simple; to the point.

JohnIdol 17y ago
point taken - that is a common pain point. thanks for the honesty

run4yourlives 17y ago

I'm not going to comment on the site itself, but I've read through the comments here and would like to put something forward: You aren't focusing enough on making this a win for your customer. I'm a potential customer. Right now, I see a process that limits my input to next to nothing, won't allow me to make revisions, and after all that, I don't even own the thing. As a comparison, for $50 more I can get 4 concepts, two revision rounds and actual ownership at Logoworks. To me, the choice is clear. I don't want or mean to disparage you but that is the current mindset of your potential customer. All I see are wins for you, but not many for them. I think you need to fix that ratio if you are to be successful. Good luck to you!

aw3c2 17y ago

Completely Javascript reliant and (for me) painfully slow (the site loads, then the content flickers into view. A good half second I guess) if I enable it. Opera 10 beta on Linux. edit: Actually it takes 4 seconds for the content to appear. And it borks my navigation-back. I have to press back at least 2 times to actually get back. Without Javascript, this is your site: http://s1.image.gd/o/84/84730e851a4074e1040dcbe659d8f929989a5afe.png http://s1.image.gd/o/84/84730e851a4074e1040dcbe659d8f929989a...

JohnIdol 17y ago
you're right - being developed in GWT the site is completely javascript dependent. The problem seems to be that with javascript disabled you're still getting the content in somewhat of a mangled form --> you shouldn't be getting any content (just a message), this is obviously not working. On performance - it's laoding up pretty good on all the browser we've tested, then again we didn't test on any of the environment you refer to, which makes your feedback much appreciated. Thanks!