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An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. I haven't been able to get an invite so I don't know how draftmix works. But using an applet for t

An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. I haven't been able to get an invite so I don't know how draftmix works. But using an applet for the live draft client gives me a huge advantage--I can use the same exact code on the client and server sides. I assume you're using Flash on the client and something else on the server. This means you have to maintain two versions of the same exact code. Every bug you find has to fixed twice. -Ori http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do

omouse 19y ago
An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. In terms of the timeline it is. It has been replaced by Flash and now AIR and Silverlight are trying to do what Applets were used for. SUN seems to be moving away from them as well, by introducing WebStart.
jsjenkins168 19y ago
Java applets leave an antiquated impression with most, mainly because people still conjure up memories of applets from 5+ years ago. Painfully slow, buggy, overused. The reality though is that applets are significantly faster now, and they are very powerful. But I doubt this will change the impression most people have of them. Flash does most of what you would need, and now there is AIR if you need access to the file system or other low level functionality. I think a mistake Sun is making is with all the branding they do with applets. Showing a Java logo each time an applet launches is a shameless plug and leaves an impression that a lot of crap is loading. The bootstrap process should be more seamless, in my opinion. They still have not changed this as far as I know.
BrandonM 19y ago
If you're using applets, I'm not using your site. Java plugin support in Linux, especially on 64-bit platforms, is not up to par. I have tried numerous times to get Java applets working in my browser before simply throwing up my hands and declaring that any site which used Java applets was not worth my time. Flash is nearly as painful, but I was at least able to get it working. Additionally, with so many sites using Flash, it's hard to ignore all of them. I used Flashblock for a while because I was tired of pointless Flash (Flashblock allows you to activate a Flash object if you wish), but so many sites used Flash that I found the plugin to be a hindrance rather than something I appreciated. Personally, if a site avoids using Flash or applets altogether (GMail comes to mind), I appreciate it that much more. When Javascript doesn't get the job done, Flash, to me, is definitely the lesser of two evils.
- alaskamiller 19y ago
  Stop using Linux. Problem solved.
  - BrandonM 19y ago
    I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement. Any ideas where I can get an open OS that does exactly what I want it to while being absolutely sure that my personal activity is not being recorded or monitored in some way (either by vendor or virus)? Is there any OS where I can copy my $HOME directory to a newly-installed system and have all my applications behave in the same way they did on my old one? Other than OSX (which happens to get many benefits from open source tools which compile on it), is there another OS where anything you feasibly want to do with your computer is a Google search away? How about updating every single application on my computer to the latest version with a single command? Those are just a few of the things I appreciate about Linux without even mentioning its cost. Linux has many inconveniences that have been gradually disappearing. On the other hand, the benefits that it offers are something that I have no hope of getting from a proprietary solution. I've only been using it for less than a year and a half, and I'm finding that my day-to-day usage has become more efficient than my Windows experience by leaps and bounds. I admit that I occasionally become frustrated by certain activities (wireless networking and suspend/hibernation routines come to mind), but even things like this are getting easier thanks to not-yet-1.0 software like NetworkManager. I seriously expect that within a few more years, Linux will be no harder to use than any other OS out there, with the added benefit of it being more free and flexible than any other option. Problem solved. On another note, if (as a service provider) you came back to me with that proposition, that would be a surefire way to lose a customer. I postulate that the average Linux customer would be more helpful to you than the average Windows or even Mac customer, as I would expect a higher level of technical savvy (less frivolous calls/e-mails to customer service) and a higher likelihood to file legitimate bug reports. If you are chasing these people away, you are losing on more than one count.
    - Retric 19y ago
      "I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement." Windows XP. When deciding what OS(or whatever) to use try and focus on more than one thing. Otherwise you end up focusing on the wrong things. I average less than 1 hour a month messing with my XP box at home. So for me messing with other desktop OS's is a waste of time. PS: I have written low level networking code for Mac OS 7 though OS X, BSD Unix, and Linux so I know the alternatives far better than most people, but IMO as a home desktop windows just works. And at the end of the day don't you have more important things to do with your time than muck around with your OS?
mattmaroon 19y ago
It does require separation of code, but not twice as much debugging. Every bug does not have to be fixed twice. It's similar to MVC architecture in a way, with the flex client being the view. I'd be surprised if the bug fixing isn't actually easier due to the separation. Also, your goal in a startup is not to make it easy for you to code, but to make it easy for your users to play. (You only do the former where it assists with the latter.) Java does not accomplish that. People don't want to piss with JRE. It is a bloated nightmare that crashes people's systems, nags them about updates, slows down bootup, etc. Everyone has Flash. In fact, more people have flash than javascript (turned on) making it the most commonly accepted environment. It and AJAX are really the only acceptable choices for a live draft.
- mynameishere 19y ago
  Don't get into language wars when you're trying to sell a product. Obviously, Java applets work for yahoo and for the people who use yahoo games, so people are evidentally able to tolerate "bloated nightmares". Applets have clunky startup/shutdown processes. That's their main problem. Aside from that, they duplicate the desktop experience quite accurately, unlike Ajax, which is a permanent kludge. Plus, how else are we going to play Kid Icarus without applets: http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&name=Kid%20Icarus http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&#3...
  - BrandonM 19y ago
    I was quite happy with Yahoo Games when I was a Windows user. I played Chess, Hearts, Euchre, and more on Yahoo Games. Once I had any problems with Java applets, however, Yahoo Games became a casualty of those problems. I literally spent at least an hour a day on Yahoo Games before switching to Linux. At that point, Yahoo's technology got in the way and I looked for non-Java alternatives. Unless you have no chance of having non-Java competition (I'm thinking of my local gas company here), it would really be a shame to lose potential users because of your technology choice.
  - trajan 19y ago
    I could be wrong, but I don't think you've done many Yahoo fantasy drafts if you think people are really OK with the draft interface. The reason I've continued to use the site over the years is more that the rest of the interface isn't that bad and that the alternatives are worse.
Tichy 19y ago
The user really doesn't care if you have to maintain your code on both client and server. Besides, even if you want to avoid that, you could always use JavaScript for both client and server.

omouse 19y ago

An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. In terms of the timeline it is. It has been replaced by Flash and now AIR and Silverlight are trying to do what Applets were used for. SUN seems to be moving away from them as well, by introducing WebStart.

jsjenkins168 19y ago

Java applets leave an antiquated impression with most, mainly because people still conjure up memories of applets from 5+ years ago. Painfully slow, buggy, overused. The reality though is that applets are significantly faster now, and they are very powerful. But I doubt this will change the impression most people have of them. Flash does most of what you would need, and now there is AIR if you need access to the file system or other low level functionality. I think a mistake Sun is making is with all the branding they do with applets. Showing a Java logo each time an applet launches is a shameless plug and leaves an impression that a lot of crap is loading. The bootstrap process should be more seamless, in my opinion. They still have not changed this as far as I know.

BrandonM 19y ago

If you're using applets, I'm not using your site. Java plugin support in Linux, especially on 64-bit platforms, is not up to par. I have tried numerous times to get Java applets working in my browser before simply throwing up my hands and declaring that any site which used Java applets was not worth my time. Flash is nearly as painful, but I was at least able to get it working. Additionally, with so many sites using Flash, it's hard to ignore all of them. I used Flashblock for a while because I was tired of pointless Flash (Flashblock allows you to activate a Flash object if you wish), but so many sites used Flash that I found the plugin to be a hindrance rather than something I appreciated. Personally, if a site avoids using Flash or applets altogether (GMail comes to mind), I appreciate it that much more. When Javascript doesn't get the job done, Flash, to me, is definitely the lesser of two evils.

alaskamiller 19y ago
Stop using Linux. Problem solved.
- BrandonM 19y ago
  I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement. Any ideas where I can get an open OS that does exactly what I want it to while being absolutely sure that my personal activity is not being recorded or monitored in some way (either by vendor or virus)? Is there any OS where I can copy my $HOME directory to a newly-installed system and have all my applications behave in the same way they did on my old one? Other than OSX (which happens to get many benefits from open source tools which compile on it), is there another OS where anything you feasibly want to do with your computer is a Google search away? How about updating every single application on my computer to the latest version with a single command? Those are just a few of the things I appreciate about Linux without even mentioning its cost. Linux has many inconveniences that have been gradually disappearing. On the other hand, the benefits that it offers are something that I have no hope of getting from a proprietary solution. I've only been using it for less than a year and a half, and I'm finding that my day-to-day usage has become more efficient than my Windows experience by leaps and bounds. I admit that I occasionally become frustrated by certain activities (wireless networking and suspend/hibernation routines come to mind), but even things like this are getting easier thanks to not-yet-1.0 software like NetworkManager. I seriously expect that within a few more years, Linux will be no harder to use than any other OS out there, with the added benefit of it being more free and flexible than any other option. Problem solved. On another note, if (as a service provider) you came back to me with that proposition, that would be a surefire way to lose a customer. I postulate that the average Linux customer would be more helpful to you than the average Windows or even Mac customer, as I would expect a higher level of technical savvy (less frivolous calls/e-mails to customer service) and a higher likelihood to file legitimate bug reports. If you are chasing these people away, you are losing on more than one count.
  - Retric 19y ago
    "I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement." Windows XP. When deciding what OS(or whatever) to use try and focus on more than one thing. Otherwise you end up focusing on the wrong things. I average less than 1 hour a month messing with my XP box at home. So for me messing with other desktop OS's is a waste of time. PS: I have written low level networking code for Mac OS 7 though OS X, BSD Unix, and Linux so I know the alternatives far better than most people, but IMO as a home desktop windows just works. And at the end of the day don't you have more important things to do with your time than muck around with your OS?

mattmaroon 19y ago

It does require separation of code, but not twice as much debugging. Every bug does not have to be fixed twice. It's similar to MVC architecture in a way, with the flex client being the view. I'd be surprised if the bug fixing isn't actually easier due to the separation. Also, your goal in a startup is not to make it easy for you to code, but to make it easy for your users to play. (You only do the former where it assists with the latter.) Java does not accomplish that. People don't want to piss with JRE. It is a bloated nightmare that crashes people's systems, nags them about updates, slows down bootup, etc. Everyone has Flash. In fact, more people have flash than javascript (turned on) making it the most commonly accepted environment. It and AJAX are really the only acceptable choices for a live draft.

mynameishere 19y ago
Don't get into language wars when you're trying to sell a product. Obviously, Java applets work for yahoo and for the people who use yahoo games, so people are evidentally able to tolerate "bloated nightmares". Applets have clunky startup/shutdown processes. That's their main problem. Aside from that, they duplicate the desktop experience quite accurately, unlike Ajax, which is a permanent kludge. Plus, how else are we going to play Kid Icarus without applets: http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&name=Kid%20Icarus http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&#3...
- BrandonM 19y ago
  I was quite happy with Yahoo Games when I was a Windows user. I played Chess, Hearts, Euchre, and more on Yahoo Games. Once I had any problems with Java applets, however, Yahoo Games became a casualty of those problems. I literally spent at least an hour a day on Yahoo Games before switching to Linux. At that point, Yahoo's technology got in the way and I looked for non-Java alternatives. Unless you have no chance of having non-Java competition (I'm thinking of my local gas company here), it would really be a shame to lose potential users because of your technology choice.
- trajan 19y ago
  I could be wrong, but I don't think you've done many Yahoo fantasy drafts if you think people are really OK with the draft interface. The reason I've continued to use the site over the years is more that the rest of the interface isn't that bad and that the alternatives are worse.

Tichy 19y ago

The user really doesn't care if you have to maintain your code on both client and server. Besides, even if you want to avoid that, you could always use JavaScript for both client and server.