5 ms·

Nobody mentions how much or little the PHP community thrives. People point out how bad PHP compares against other languages. The fact that you enjoy using PHP a

Nobody mentions how much or little the PHP community thrives. People point out how bad PHP compares against other languages. The fact that you enjoy using PHP and that you can create great products with it does not imply that it has no flaws. Many have been where you are now, and then moved on to other languages to never ever look back. From what I've seen, the reverse is much less common.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
newaccountfool 13y ago
If you enjoy programming in it, and you can create great code then what's the problem?
- coldtea 13y ago
  That you are too pragmatic for the fashion victims of programming.
- CHY872 13y ago
  because real world people don't program because it's fun, they program because they need to make money.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    Oh, come on. I've probably written about 20x as much code in my life for fun, than I did to make money. Guess I'm not a "real world people". Though that ratio changes a bit closer to 3:1 looking at only PHP code I ever wrote. The "for fun" element was good times though, my first steps in server side programming :)
    - CHY872 12y ago
      Something needs to pay the bills. If a PHP project takes longer to complete (I'm not saying it does), is harder to maintain, etc than an equivalent project written in another language, then you will simply be less productive in PHP. This is the case for any language. No matter how much you enjoy something, if a design choice you made (like choosing PHP, or Perl, or C++) means that you spend more of your time on the project, you've made a mistake. The purpose of a language is to remove as much of the incidental complexity of the project as possible, leaving only the (more enjoyable) intrinsic complexity.
adamors 13y ago
> Nobody mentions how much or little the PHP community thrives. People point out how bad PHP compares against other languages. I don't actually think that faults in a language matter that much if the people using it are competent. Both Javascript and Perl come close to PHP in terms of negative traits, yet a lot of good software was written with both. The same can be said about PHP, the only difference is that people on HN have very little idea about what contemporary PHP (language and software) looks like.
- lern_too_spel 13y ago
  JavaScript is a horrible language. The fact that a lot of good software is written in JavaScript because there is no good alternative in the browser does not make it any less a horrible language. The problem with PHP is that it is a horrible language and there are plenty of better options in its niche. Those two factors combine to make PHP a nonstarter for programmers who are familiar with the other options. I dispute that there is any good software written in Perl.
  - jafaku 12y ago
    > I dispute that there is any good software written in Perl. Do you even Linux? Have you ever installed anything? If you pay attention you will notice that lots of the libraries you are using for everything are written in Perl.
- meowface 13y ago
  There are many good PHP web frameworks out there today, yes. These don't somehow erase PHP's core flaws as a language though. You can make a new project in Symfony or Laravel, sure, but you'll get that same niceness plus way more goodies if you use a popular Python or Ruby framework.
  - debaserab2 13y ago
    I think you need to qualify that a bit - what are "way more goodies" exactly? Can you name something that Python can do that PHP can't?
jafaku 13y ago
> Many have been where you are now, and then moved on to other languages to never ever look back. From what I've seen, the reverse is much less common. I really doubt that. In my experience there haven't been a single time when someone attacking PHP actually knew something about it that wasn't outdated by at least 5 years. It's funny how difficult it is for people like you to grasp that the language and its ecosystem evolves every day, much faster than other languages. Just look at what you just said. How can someone have been where I am right now? They used a time machine? Or you are assuming that the language stopped evolving at some point, or never evolved at all in the first place?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

newaccountfool 13y ago

If you enjoy programming in it, and you can create great code then what's the problem?

coldtea 13y ago
That you are too pragmatic for the fashion victims of programming.
CHY872 13y ago
because real world people don't program because it's fun, they program because they need to make money.
- tripzilch 12y ago
  Oh, come on. I've probably written about 20x as much code in my life for fun, than I did to make money. Guess I'm not a "real world people". Though that ratio changes a bit closer to 3:1 looking at only PHP code I ever wrote. The "for fun" element was good times though, my first steps in server side programming :)
  - CHY872 12y ago
    Something needs to pay the bills. If a PHP project takes longer to complete (I'm not saying it does), is harder to maintain, etc than an equivalent project written in another language, then you will simply be less productive in PHP. This is the case for any language. No matter how much you enjoy something, if a design choice you made (like choosing PHP, or Perl, or C++) means that you spend more of your time on the project, you've made a mistake. The purpose of a language is to remove as much of the incidental complexity of the project as possible, leaving only the (more enjoyable) intrinsic complexity.

adamors 13y ago

> Nobody mentions how much or little the PHP community thrives. People point out how bad PHP compares against other languages. I don't actually think that faults in a language matter that much if the people using it are competent. Both Javascript and Perl come close to PHP in terms of negative traits, yet a lot of good software was written with both. The same can be said about PHP, the only difference is that people on HN have very little idea about what contemporary PHP (language and software) looks like.

lern_too_spel 13y ago
JavaScript is a horrible language. The fact that a lot of good software is written in JavaScript because there is no good alternative in the browser does not make it any less a horrible language. The problem with PHP is that it is a horrible language and there are plenty of better options in its niche. Those two factors combine to make PHP a nonstarter for programmers who are familiar with the other options. I dispute that there is any good software written in Perl.
- jafaku 12y ago
  > I dispute that there is any good software written in Perl. Do you even Linux? Have you ever installed anything? If you pay attention you will notice that lots of the libraries you are using for everything are written in Perl.
meowface 13y ago
There are many good PHP web frameworks out there today, yes. These don't somehow erase PHP's core flaws as a language though. You can make a new project in Symfony or Laravel, sure, but you'll get that same niceness plus way more goodies if you use a popular Python or Ruby framework.
- debaserab2 13y ago
  I think you need to qualify that a bit - what are "way more goodies" exactly? Can you name something that Python can do that PHP can't?

jafaku 13y ago

> Many have been where you are now, and then moved on to other languages to never ever look back. From what I've seen, the reverse is much less common. I really doubt that. In my experience there haven't been a single time when someone attacking PHP actually knew something about it that wasn't outdated by at least 5 years. It's funny how difficult it is for people like you to grasp that the language and its ecosystem evolves every day, much faster than other languages. Just look at what you just said. How can someone have been where I am right now? They used a time machine? Or you are assuming that the language stopped evolving at some point, or never evolved at all in the first place?