5 ms·

Crunched

25 points by JRM 19y ago

fleaflicker 19y ago
An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. I haven't been able to get an invite so I don't know how draftmix works. But using an applet for the live draft client gives me a huge advantage--I can use the same exact code on the client and server sides. I assume you're using Flash on the client and something else on the server. This means you have to maintain two versions of the same exact code. Every bug you find has to fixed twice. -Ori http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do
- omouse 19y ago
  An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. In terms of the timeline it is. It has been replaced by Flash and now AIR and Silverlight are trying to do what Applets were used for. SUN seems to be moving away from them as well, by introducing WebStart.
- jsjenkins168 19y ago
  Java applets leave an antiquated impression with most, mainly because people still conjure up memories of applets from 5+ years ago. Painfully slow, buggy, overused. The reality though is that applets are significantly faster now, and they are very powerful. But I doubt this will change the impression most people have of them. Flash does most of what you would need, and now there is AIR if you need access to the file system or other low level functionality. I think a mistake Sun is making is with all the branding they do with applets. Showing a Java logo each time an applet launches is a shameless plug and leaves an impression that a lot of crap is loading. The bootstrap process should be more seamless, in my opinion. They still have not changed this as far as I know.
- BrandonM 19y ago
  If you're using applets, I'm not using your site. Java plugin support in Linux, especially on 64-bit platforms, is not up to par. I have tried numerous times to get Java applets working in my browser before simply throwing up my hands and declaring that any site which used Java applets was not worth my time. Flash is nearly as painful, but I was at least able to get it working. Additionally, with so many sites using Flash, it's hard to ignore all of them. I used Flashblock for a while because I was tired of pointless Flash (Flashblock allows you to activate a Flash object if you wish), but so many sites used Flash that I found the plugin to be a hindrance rather than something I appreciated. Personally, if a site avoids using Flash or applets altogether (GMail comes to mind), I appreciate it that much more. When Javascript doesn't get the job done, Flash, to me, is definitely the lesser of two evils.
  - alaskamiller 19y ago
    Stop using Linux. Problem solved.
    - BrandonM 19y ago
      I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement. Any ideas where I can get an open OS that does exactly what I want it to while being absolutely sure that my personal activity is not being recorded or monitored in some way (either by vendor or virus)? Is there any OS where I can copy my $HOME directory to a newly-installed system and have all my applications behave in the same way they did on my old one? Other than OSX (which happens to get many benefits from open source tools which compile on it), is there another OS where anything you feasibly want to do with your computer is a Google search away? How about updating every single application on my computer to the latest version with a single command? Those are just a few of the things I appreciate about Linux without even mentioning its cost. Linux has many inconveniences that have been gradually disappearing. On the other hand, the benefits that it offers are something that I have no hope of getting from a proprietary solution. I've only been using it for less than a year and a half, and I'm finding that my day-to-day usage has become more efficient than my Windows experience by leaps and bounds. I admit that I occasionally become frustrated by certain activities (wireless networking and suspend/hibernation routines come to mind), but even things like this are getting easier thanks to not-yet-1.0 software like NetworkManager. I seriously expect that within a few more years, Linux will be no harder to use than any other OS out there, with the added benefit of it being more free and flexible than any other option. Problem solved. On another note, if (as a service provider) you came back to me with that proposition, that would be a surefire way to lose a customer. I postulate that the average Linux customer would be more helpful to you than the average Windows or even Mac customer, as I would expect a higher level of technical savvy (less frivolous calls/e-mails to customer service) and a higher likelihood to file legitimate bug reports. If you are chasing these people away, you are losing on more than one count.
      - Retric 19y ago
        "I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement." Windows XP. When deciding what OS(or whatever) to use try and focus on more than one thing. Otherwise you end up focusing on the wrong things. I average less than 1 hour a month messing with my XP box at home. So for me messing with other desktop OS's is a waste of time. PS: I have written low level networking code for Mac OS 7 though OS X, BSD Unix, and Linux so I know the alternatives far better than most people, but IMO as a home desktop windows just works. And at the end of the day don't you have more important things to do with your time than muck around with your OS?
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  It does require separation of code, but not twice as much debugging. Every bug does not have to be fixed twice. It's similar to MVC architecture in a way, with the flex client being the view. I'd be surprised if the bug fixing isn't actually easier due to the separation. Also, your goal in a startup is not to make it easy for you to code, but to make it easy for your users to play. (You only do the former where it assists with the latter.) Java does not accomplish that. People don't want to piss with JRE. It is a bloated nightmare that crashes people's systems, nags them about updates, slows down bootup, etc. Everyone has Flash. In fact, more people have flash than javascript (turned on) making it the most commonly accepted environment. It and AJAX are really the only acceptable choices for a live draft.
  - mynameishere 19y ago
    Don't get into language wars when you're trying to sell a product. Obviously, Java applets work for yahoo and for the people who use yahoo games, so people are evidentally able to tolerate "bloated nightmares". Applets have clunky startup/shutdown processes. That's their main problem. Aside from that, they duplicate the desktop experience quite accurately, unlike Ajax, which is a permanent kludge. Plus, how else are we going to play Kid Icarus without applets: http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&name=Kid%20Icarus http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&#3...
    - BrandonM 19y ago
      I was quite happy with Yahoo Games when I was a Windows user. I played Chess, Hearts, Euchre, and more on Yahoo Games. Once I had any problems with Java applets, however, Yahoo Games became a casualty of those problems. I literally spent at least an hour a day on Yahoo Games before switching to Linux. At that point, Yahoo's technology got in the way and I looked for non-Java alternatives. Unless you have no chance of having non-Java competition (I'm thinking of my local gas company here), it would really be a shame to lose potential users because of your technology choice.
    - trajan 19y ago
      I could be wrong, but I don't think you've done many Yahoo fantasy drafts if you think people are really OK with the draft interface. The reason I've continued to use the site over the years is more that the rest of the interface isn't that bad and that the alternatives are worse.
- Tichy 19y ago
  The user really doesn't care if you have to maintain your code on both client and server. Besides, even if you want to avoid that, you could always use JavaScript for both client and server.
Harj 19y ago
what % of users in this market do you think care whether their fantasy sports site uses a java applet or flash?
- Alex3917 19y ago
  Because all sports fans are dumb?
  - alaskamiller 19y ago
    Because when you're trying to pound down a nail, it doesn't matter what you use as a hammer.
    - mattmaroon 19y ago
      But if presented a hammer and a screwdriver, you'll use a hammer as a hammer every time. So why give people a screwdriver?
      - russ 19y ago
        I dunno Matt...I'd much rather get wasted than work as a carpenter.
        mattmaroon 19y ago
        I guess I hadn't thought of it that way.
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  Every one who doesn't already have the JRE installed, which is a lot of people. Why raise the barrier to entry?
drubio 19y ago
Litigation in the making... All the major sports leagues are notorious for protecting their brands and trademarks -- NFL, MLB, NHL,etc -- , simply look at the licensing deals some sites like Yahoo have needed to go through. And to top it off, they are mixing in virtual dollars (gambling) into the mix, which has been under fire recently in the U.S. Its an untapped market for sure, but a snake-pit in litigation issues. May be the next YouTube you never know, but I doubt it, the sports leagues are more aware of the online world the movie studios.
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  That battle has already been fought and won by another fantasy sports company. See CBC v. MLB.
tlrobinson 19y ago
I'm sorry, but no one has the right to compare themselves to Steve Jobs.
- pg 19y ago
  http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphor http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphor
  - dfranke 19y ago
    Zinger thief! http://reddit.com/info/wbt3/comments/cwc5a http://reddit.com/info/wbt3/comments/cwc5a
koolmoe 19y ago
I think the Java vs. Flex debate is out of place here. The way Matt's comment re Java fits into the discussion has more to do with the amount of attention that most Fantasy Sports providers are giving to the domain. In that context, I think Matt is on the money. The big providers are not keenly focused on the problem. I'm an avid fantasy sports fan, and my experience has been far from optimal. The killer part of the app is that it offers the ability to bet online and get quick gratification. Draftmix hits the action player's sweet spot, and I suspect apps in this area will drastically outperform their season-long counterparts. Anyone familiar with gambling economics knows that the action players and casual gamers drive the economy. The argument about skill vs. chance in the comments of the TechCrunch article is interesting. I think it's easy to make a compelling argument that success in the short term format might require more skill than season long formats, but legislators have demonstrated that compelling arguments hold less value than one might think they should.
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  I agree re: skill in short format leagues. What it would come down to, should we ever end up in court (which we're taking great pains to avoid) is convincing a jury that we meet whatever test their state applies to a game to determine if it is a game of skill or not. We're staying away from states where that test is too stringent (i.e., many states ban games that involve any luck at all). In the ones in which we operate (39) the test is typically that luck is the predominant factor. We feel that given a large sample we can mathematically prove that a player can win over time regardless of luck. We're certainly seeing that so far.
  - greendestiny 19y ago
    How do those jurisdictions judge betting on the result of a match? Picking players on their teams likely performance would surely be a significant part of the game. Although given that what you're doing isn't odds adjusted, it's probably not that great a comparison.
    - mattmaroon 19y ago
axod 19y ago
I'd agree about applets. They look ugly in the main, trying to make them not look ugly and out of place is very hard. Startup time is very slow, and they do stick out like a sore thumb saying "1990s! 1990s!" If a website is slow, and looks ugly users are going to be less likely to use it.
ed 19y ago
"The rest of the group was laughing at how the article was focused around me, as if I created the whole site myself." Matt you've got to learn to better appreciate your team, future Steve Jobs or not.
- russ 19y ago
  It doesn't stop at non-appreciation. Matt literally beats team members when they can't get features completed on time. I can post my bruises to flickr if you want?
  - mattmaroon 19y ago
    Bitch, I told you, I only beat you because I love you.
nickb 19y ago
Matt, how many hits did you get from being t'crunced? What's the return visitor rate?
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  Actually, less than I got from here (by far). But I got a hell of a lot of random contact emails from people wanting to sell me stuff, wanting a job, wanting to explore a partnership, and potentially even to invest. Very odd.
  - nickb 19y ago
    Hehe... TC seems to attract a lot of weirdos :)

25 points by JRM 19y ago

An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. I haven't been able to get an invite so I don't know how draftmix works. But using an applet for the live draft client gives me a huge advantage--I can use the same exact code on the client and server sides. I assume you're using Flash on the client and something else on the server. This means you have to maintain two versions of the same exact code. Every bug you find has to fixed twice. -Ori http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do

omouse 19y ago
An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph. In terms of the timeline it is. It has been replaced by Flash and now AIR and Silverlight are trying to do what Applets were used for. SUN seems to be moving away from them as well, by introducing WebStart.
jsjenkins168 19y ago
Java applets leave an antiquated impression with most, mainly because people still conjure up memories of applets from 5+ years ago. Painfully slow, buggy, overused. The reality though is that applets are significantly faster now, and they are very powerful. But I doubt this will change the impression most people have of them. Flash does most of what you would need, and now there is AIR if you need access to the file system or other low level functionality. I think a mistake Sun is making is with all the branding they do with applets. Showing a Java logo each time an applet launches is a shameless plug and leaves an impression that a lot of crap is loading. The bootstrap process should be more seamless, in my opinion. They still have not changed this as far as I know.
BrandonM 19y ago
If you're using applets, I'm not using your site. Java plugin support in Linux, especially on 64-bit platforms, is not up to par. I have tried numerous times to get Java applets working in my browser before simply throwing up my hands and declaring that any site which used Java applets was not worth my time. Flash is nearly as painful, but I was at least able to get it working. Additionally, with so many sites using Flash, it's hard to ignore all of them. I used Flashblock for a while because I was tired of pointless Flash (Flashblock allows you to activate a Flash object if you wish), but so many sites used Flash that I found the plugin to be a hindrance rather than something I appreciated. Personally, if a site avoids using Flash or applets altogether (GMail comes to mind), I appreciate it that much more. When Javascript doesn't get the job done, Flash, to me, is definitely the lesser of two evils.
- alaskamiller 19y ago
  Stop using Linux. Problem solved.
  - BrandonM 19y ago
    I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement. Any ideas where I can get an open OS that does exactly what I want it to while being absolutely sure that my personal activity is not being recorded or monitored in some way (either by vendor or virus)? Is there any OS where I can copy my $HOME directory to a newly-installed system and have all my applications behave in the same way they did on my old one? Other than OSX (which happens to get many benefits from open source tools which compile on it), is there another OS where anything you feasibly want to do with your computer is a Google search away? How about updating every single application on my computer to the latest version with a single command? Those are just a few of the things I appreciate about Linux without even mentioning its cost. Linux has many inconveniences that have been gradually disappearing. On the other hand, the benefits that it offers are something that I have no hope of getting from a proprietary solution. I've only been using it for less than a year and a half, and I'm finding that my day-to-day usage has become more efficient than my Windows experience by leaps and bounds. I admit that I occasionally become frustrated by certain activities (wireless networking and suspend/hibernation routines come to mind), but even things like this are getting easier thanks to not-yet-1.0 software like NetworkManager. I seriously expect that within a few more years, Linux will be no harder to use than any other OS out there, with the added benefit of it being more free and flexible than any other option. Problem solved. On another note, if (as a service provider) you came back to me with that proposition, that would be a surefire way to lose a customer. I postulate that the average Linux customer would be more helpful to you than the average Windows or even Mac customer, as I would expect a higher level of technical savvy (less frivolous calls/e-mails to customer service) and a higher likelihood to file legitimate bug reports. If you are chasing these people away, you are losing on more than one count.
    - Retric 19y ago
      "I'd love to hear your suggestion for a replacement." Windows XP. When deciding what OS(or whatever) to use try and focus on more than one thing. Otherwise you end up focusing on the wrong things. I average less than 1 hour a month messing with my XP box at home. So for me messing with other desktop OS's is a waste of time. PS: I have written low level networking code for Mac OS 7 though OS X, BSD Unix, and Linux so I know the alternatives far better than most people, but IMO as a home desktop windows just works. And at the end of the day don't you have more important things to do with your time than muck around with your OS?
mattmaroon 19y ago
It does require separation of code, but not twice as much debugging. Every bug does not have to be fixed twice. It's similar to MVC architecture in a way, with the flex client being the view. I'd be surprised if the bug fixing isn't actually easier due to the separation. Also, your goal in a startup is not to make it easy for you to code, but to make it easy for your users to play. (You only do the former where it assists with the latter.) Java does not accomplish that. People don't want to piss with JRE. It is a bloated nightmare that crashes people's systems, nags them about updates, slows down bootup, etc. Everyone has Flash. In fact, more people have flash than javascript (turned on) making it the most commonly accepted environment. It and AJAX are really the only acceptable choices for a live draft.
- mynameishere 19y ago
  Don't get into language wars when you're trying to sell a product. Obviously, Java applets work for yahoo and for the people who use yahoo games, so people are evidentally able to tolerate "bloated nightmares". Applets have clunky startup/shutdown processes. That's their main problem. Aside from that, they duplicate the desktop experience quite accurately, unlike Ajax, which is a permanent kludge. Plus, how else are we going to play Kid Icarus without applets: http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&name=Kid%20Icarus http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip&#3...
  - BrandonM 19y ago
    I was quite happy with Yahoo Games when I was a Windows user. I played Chess, Hearts, Euchre, and more on Yahoo Games. Once I had any problems with Java applets, however, Yahoo Games became a casualty of those problems. I literally spent at least an hour a day on Yahoo Games before switching to Linux. At that point, Yahoo's technology got in the way and I looked for non-Java alternatives. Unless you have no chance of having non-Java competition (I'm thinking of my local gas company here), it would really be a shame to lose potential users because of your technology choice.
  - trajan 19y ago
    I could be wrong, but I don't think you've done many Yahoo fantasy drafts if you think people are really OK with the draft interface. The reason I've continued to use the site over the years is more that the rest of the interface isn't that bad and that the alternatives are worse.
Tichy 19y ago
The user really doesn't care if you have to maintain your code on both client and server. Besides, even if you want to avoid that, you could always use JavaScript for both client and server.

Harj 19y ago

what % of users in this market do you think care whether their fantasy sports site uses a java applet or flash?

Alex3917 19y ago
Because all sports fans are dumb?
- alaskamiller 19y ago
  Because when you're trying to pound down a nail, it doesn't matter what you use as a hammer.
  - mattmaroon 19y ago
    But if presented a hammer and a screwdriver, you'll use a hammer as a hammer every time. So why give people a screwdriver?
    - russ 19y ago
      I dunno Matt...I'd much rather get wasted than work as a carpenter.
      - mattmaroon 19y ago
        I guess I hadn't thought of it that way.
mattmaroon 19y ago
Every one who doesn't already have the JRE installed, which is a lot of people. Why raise the barrier to entry?

drubio 19y ago

Litigation in the making... All the major sports leagues are notorious for protecting their brands and trademarks -- NFL, MLB, NHL,etc -- , simply look at the licensing deals some sites like Yahoo have needed to go through. And to top it off, they are mixing in virtual dollars (gambling) into the mix, which has been under fire recently in the U.S. Its an untapped market for sure, but a snake-pit in litigation issues. May be the next YouTube you never know, but I doubt it, the sports leagues are more aware of the online world the movie studios.

mattmaroon 19y ago
That battle has already been fought and won by another fantasy sports company. See CBC v. MLB.

tlrobinson 19y ago

I'm sorry, but no one has the right to compare themselves to Steve Jobs.

pg 19y ago
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphor http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphor
- dfranke 19y ago
  Zinger thief! http://reddit.com/info/wbt3/comments/cwc5a http://reddit.com/info/wbt3/comments/cwc5a

koolmoe 19y ago

I think the Java vs. Flex debate is out of place here. The way Matt's comment re Java fits into the discussion has more to do with the amount of attention that most Fantasy Sports providers are giving to the domain. In that context, I think Matt is on the money. The big providers are not keenly focused on the problem. I'm an avid fantasy sports fan, and my experience has been far from optimal. The killer part of the app is that it offers the ability to bet online and get quick gratification. Draftmix hits the action player's sweet spot, and I suspect apps in this area will drastically outperform their season-long counterparts. Anyone familiar with gambling economics knows that the action players and casual gamers drive the economy. The argument about skill vs. chance in the comments of the TechCrunch article is interesting. I think it's easy to make a compelling argument that success in the short term format might require more skill than season long formats, but legislators have demonstrated that compelling arguments hold less value than one might think they should.

mattmaroon 19y ago
I agree re: skill in short format leagues. What it would come down to, should we ever end up in court (which we're taking great pains to avoid) is convincing a jury that we meet whatever test their state applies to a game to determine if it is a game of skill or not. We're staying away from states where that test is too stringent (i.e., many states ban games that involve any luck at all). In the ones in which we operate (39) the test is typically that luck is the predominant factor. We feel that given a large sample we can mathematically prove that a player can win over time regardless of luck. We're certainly seeing that so far.
- greendestiny 19y ago
  How do those jurisdictions judge betting on the result of a match? Picking players on their teams likely performance would surely be a significant part of the game. Although given that what you're doing isn't odds adjusted, it's probably not that great a comparison.
  - mattmaroon 19y ago

axod 19y ago

I'd agree about applets. They look ugly in the main, trying to make them not look ugly and out of place is very hard. Startup time is very slow, and they do stick out like a sore thumb saying "1990s! 1990s!" If a website is slow, and looks ugly users are going to be less likely to use it.

ed 19y ago

"The rest of the group was laughing at how the article was focused around me, as if I created the whole site myself." Matt you've got to learn to better appreciate your team, future Steve Jobs or not.

russ 19y ago
It doesn't stop at non-appreciation. Matt literally beats team members when they can't get features completed on time. I can post my bruises to flickr if you want?
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  Bitch, I told you, I only beat you because I love you.

nickb 19y ago

Matt, how many hits did you get from being t'crunced? What's the return visitor rate?

mattmaroon 19y ago
Actually, less than I got from here (by far). But I got a hell of a lot of random contact emails from people wanting to sell me stuff, wanting a job, wanting to explore a partnership, and potentially even to invest. Very odd.
- nickb 19y ago
  Hehe... TC seems to attract a lot of weirdos :)