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For me, the next natural question is this: if a brain can be simulated by any turing-complete system with enough memory, and a bunch of crabs can comprise a tu

by kremlin 12y ago

For me, the next natural question is this: if a brain can be simulated by any turing-complete system with enough memory, and a bunch of crabs can comprise a turing-complete system...can a bunch of crabs arranged properly into trillions of logic gates produce consciousness?

Double_Cast 12y ago
Obligatory xkcd. http://xkcd.com/505/ http://xkcd.com/505/
- kremlin 12y ago
  this is the second time that specific strip was linked in a reply to a comment I made. First time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538726
fjarlq 12y ago
Good question. I enjoyed this exploration of that question (using cellular automata instead of crabs): Muhlestein, M. (2013). Counterfactuals, Computation, and Consciousness. Cognitive Computation, 5(1), 99-105. Free copy: http://muhlestein.com/consciousness/ccc.html http://muhlestein.com/consciousness/ccc.html
Geee 12y ago
Yes, they can. And they actually do, in a sense. There was recently a thread on HN about lots of ants behaving as a one intelligent entity although a single ant is very dumb: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551 The discussion 'evolved' into evolution (of systems). It's strange that this paper discusses computation also as evolution, but I'm not sure if they mean the same thing. I also suggested that human brain computes (or thinks) by 'simulating' evolution. In this case, your individual brain cells would be like those bunch of crabs, just doing their business and producing thoughts as a whole.
- tree_of_item 12y ago
  You seem pretty confident about that; how could you possibly know if a collection of crabs produces "consciousness"? That's not even the same sort of thing as ants dropping pheromones, which is trivial to model on a computer.
  - Geee 12y ago
    Well, not consciousness (I don't know what that is), but intelligence.
  - mnemonicsloth 12y ago
    You seem pretty confident that you are conscious, but I've seen no conclusive evidence. How can a person possibly know if a collection of brain cells produces "consciousness"? What brain cells do is definitely not the same sort of thing as the inner life of my experience.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
danbruc 12y ago
The first step is to answer a different question. What is consciousness? How do you determine whether or not a system is conscious? If you can answer this question the answer to your question is probably easy.
jacquesm 12y ago
You only really need one crab to produce consciousness...
mikeash 12y ago
I think it's really interesting how a large chunk of people will reply to this question with "well of course", while another large chunk of people will see this question as proof that consciousness cannot be simulated. (For what it's worth, I'm in the former camp. I think you'd need far more than trillions though.)

by kremlin 12y ago

Double_Cast 12y ago

Obligatory xkcd. http://xkcd.com/505/ http://xkcd.com/505/

kremlin 12y ago
this is the second time that specific strip was linked in a reply to a comment I made. First time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538726

fjarlq 12y ago

Good question. I enjoyed this exploration of that question (using cellular automata instead of crabs): Muhlestein, M. (2013). Counterfactuals, Computation, and Consciousness. Cognitive Computation, 5(1), 99-105. Free copy: http://muhlestein.com/consciousness/ccc.html http://muhlestein.com/consciousness/ccc.html

Geee 12y ago

Yes, they can. And they actually do, in a sense. There was recently a thread on HN about lots of ants behaving as a one intelligent entity although a single ant is very dumb: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551 The discussion 'evolved' into evolution (of systems). It's strange that this paper discusses computation also as evolution, but I'm not sure if they mean the same thing. I also suggested that human brain computes (or thinks) by 'simulating' evolution. In this case, your individual brain cells would be like those bunch of crabs, just doing their business and producing thoughts as a whole.

tree_of_item 12y ago
You seem pretty confident about that; how could you possibly know if a collection of crabs produces "consciousness"? That's not even the same sort of thing as ants dropping pheromones, which is trivial to model on a computer.
- Geee 12y ago
  Well, not consciousness (I don't know what that is), but intelligence.
- mnemonicsloth 12y ago
  You seem pretty confident that you are conscious, but I've seen no conclusive evidence. How can a person possibly know if a collection of brain cells produces "consciousness"? What brain cells do is definitely not the same sort of thing as the inner life of my experience.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

danbruc 12y ago

The first step is to answer a different question. What is consciousness? How do you determine whether or not a system is conscious? If you can answer this question the answer to your question is probably easy.

jacquesm 12y ago

You only really need one crab to produce consciousness...

mikeash 12y ago

I think it's really interesting how a large chunk of people will reply to this question with "well of course", while another large chunk of people will see this question as proof that consciousness cannot be simulated. (For what it's worth, I'm in the former camp. I think you'd need far more than trillions though.)