8 ms·

The primary reason I won't work for Google is because I'm nowhere near smart enough. But I like to tell myself that the ethical shortcuts they've taken in purs

by etfb 12y ago

The primary reason I won't work for Google is because I'm nowhere near smart enough. But I like to tell myself that the ethical shortcuts they've taken in pursuit of the almighty dollar are a good secondary reason. It's just that I don't need a secondary reason, so yay, consequence-free ethics!

sk5t 12y ago
Although I agree with the thrust of your comment, re. intelligence, I will nevertheless downvote you for being petulant.
- eternalban 12y ago
  This (GP) current top comment is an indirect ad-hominem and taking valuable real estate in this page. Up voting you.
vixin 12y ago
Your honesty is to be applauded.
id 12y ago
It's not enough to be smart, you have to convince them that you're smart. And if the recruiters dislike you for whatever reason, there's nothing you can do about it.
- jschuur 12y ago
  I think Google's recruiters realize that some really smart people have certain personality types that may mean they don't perform well in classical interviews.
- mmahemoff 12y ago
  It's not enough to be smart reason 2: Intelligence is not the only quality they're selecting for.
threeseed 12y ago
Google in the beginning made hiring PhD types a priority but that has absolutely changed in recent years. It would be truly surprising if they would turn down someone with an exceptional list of open source projects or working experience.
lamby 12y ago
Mm. These sort of posts ("Why I won't work for Google", "Why I won't sign your NDA", "Why I won't do your technical interview") often come across as having a different agenda, and not necessarily one based on insecurity.
- kumbasha 12y ago
  What agenda? Google sucks, NDAs suck, etc?
  - lamby 12y ago
    No; self-promotion, self-branding, etc.
mehrdada 12y ago
> The primary reason I won't work for Google is because I'm nowhere near smart enough I think plenty of people tend to vastly overestimate Google's (or Facebook's, ...) hiring bar. I know quite a few people who would be happy to work there and (I believe) can easily beat the hiring process, but they self-eliminate themselves from the game, so I definitely recommend to folks not to make a prejudice about whether they can get into, because they generally don't have many data points, and go interview anyway. Let them figure out whether you are smart enough or not; don't self-eliminate. Never let the widespread propaganda lead you to believe that everyone hired by a successful company in the valley is a genius. They collectively hire many thousands of people; it's hard to believe they are all geniuses.
- 67726e 12y ago
  Honestly, I used to think the same way. I am a college dropout that has about 3 years professional experience (thoigh I have been programming since I was a kid) and I suddenly have a Google recruiter coming after me and trying to get me to interview. I have worked with a guy who now works at Google and some people who interviewed at one time or another. They say the same thing as the parent post; Google hires good programmers, and they happen to have some geniuses. Don't quit the race before you even start it.
  - QuantumChaos 12y ago
    Think about the sociology of this: would you really expect a Google employee to say "Yes, we are almost all geniuses"? There is a lot of social pressure to attribute one's success to hard work (except of you're a White male ;-) ), luck, good mentorship, experience, meta-skills etc. rather than intelligence.
  - recentdarkness 12y ago
    made the same experience. they also said they have different interview ways if someone does not have a degree in cs, math or anything what would give a more theoretical background. which is my case. still i am currently happy where i am and i am not really willing to relocate to any of their dev centers in Europe.
rikacomet 12y ago
Just want to note that, ethics are not just simply things people have been doing for years, but in fact human progress/efficiency measures built into social behavior. Such a ignorance towards ethics is like debt: initially you grow, keep doing it, and soon enough you take a nosedive.
sidcool 12y ago
I agree with you. I feel the same. At the same time I wonder if I suffer from the Impostor Syndrome. It's difficult to tell.
smikhanov 12y ago
It's also funny to see "I have to decline your job offer" line in the response to a recruiter's first cold email. Recruiter reaching out to him is nowhere near the actual job offer, so this guy publicly flatters himself big time.
ntakasaki 12y ago
I won't work for them because they're increasingly becoming more and more evil. As an example, they've been secretly building ad profiles of Google Apps for Education student users even if ads were turned off by the administrator to show them ads on other Google sites. They give schools free Chromebooks and all, but they should atleast declare what kind of profiling they're doing to the students who are forced to use the Google cloud for student email. They denied it when asked, but couldn't get their employees and lawyers to lie in federal court, silently removed language about not tracking from their site and finally a few days ago turned it off! If not for a lawsuit, this tracking would've not come to light. Couple that with massive spending on lobbying compared to Apple and MS makes me feel uneasy. The below article makes me wonder if they use paying Google Apps for Business email accounts to build ad profiles too? Anyone know? From http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2014/03/13/26google.h33.html http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2014/03/13/26google.h33.ht... : "As part of a potentially explosive lawsuit making its way through federal court, the giant online-services provider Google has acknowledged scanning the contents of millions of email messages sent and received by student users of the company’s Apps for Education tool suite for schools. In the suit, the Mountain View, Calif.-based company also faces accusations from plaintiffs that it went further, crossing a “creepy line” by using information gleaned from the scans to build “surreptitious” profiles of Apps for Education users that could be used for such purposes as targeted advertising." "A Google spokeswoman confirmed to Education Week that the company “scans and indexes” the emails of all Apps for Education users for a variety of purposes, including potential advertising, via automated processes that cannot be turned off—even for Apps for Education customers who elect not to receive ads. The company would not say whether those email scans are used to help build profiles of students or other Apps for Education users, but said the results of its data mining are not used to actually target ads to Apps for Education users unless they choose to receive them." ... "Student-data-privacy experts contend that the latter claim is contradicted by Google’s own court filings in the California suit. They describe the case as highly troubling and likely to further inflame rising national concern that protection of children’s private educational information is too lax." "Mr. Thiele said his district has used Google Apps for Education since 2008. Officials there have always been aware that the company does “back-end processing” of students’ email messages, he said, but the district’s agreement with Google precludes such data from being used to serve ads to students or staff members. As long as the company abides by those terms, Mr. Thiele said, “I don’t have any problem with it.” In an emailed statement provided to Education Week, Bram Bout, the director of Google Apps for Education, said that “ads in Gmail are turned off by default for Google Apps for Education and we have no plans to change that in the future.”" ... "Those plaintiffs in the California lawsuit allege that Google treats Google Apps for Education email users virtually the same as it treats consumer Gmail users. That means not only mining students’ email messages for key words and other information, but also using resulting data—including newly created derivative information, or “metadata”—for “secret user profiling” that could serve as the basis for such activities as delivering targeted ads in Google products other than Apps for Education, such as Google Search, Google+, and YouTube." "The plaintiffs allege that Google has employed such practices since around 2010, when it began using a new technology, known as Content Onebox, that allows the company to intercept and scan emails before they reach their intended recipients, rather than after messages are delivered to users’ inboxes, regardless of whether ads are turned off." "While the allegations by the plaintiffs are explosive, it’s the sworn declarations of Google representatives in response to their claims that have truly raised the eyebrows of observers and privacy experts. Contrary to the company’s earlier public statements, Google representatives acknowledged in a September motion to dismiss the plaintiffs’ request for class certification that the company’s consumer-privacy policy applies to Apps for Education users. Thus, Google argues, it has students’ (and other Apps for Education users’) consent to scan and process their emails." "In November, Kyle C. Wong, a lawyer representing Google, also argued in a formal declaration submitted to the court in opposition to the plaintiffs’ motion for class certification that the company’s data-mining practices are widely known, and that the plaintiffs’ complaints that the scanning and processing of their emails was done secretly are thus invalid. Mr. Wong cited extensive media coverage about Google’s data mining of Gmail consumer users’ messages, as well as the disclosures made by numerous universities to their students about how Google Apps for Education functions."
jw2013 12y ago
>The primary reason I won't work for Google is because I'm nowhere near smart enough. But as long as the hiring process keeps the same as of it is now, it can be hacked not that difficultly by keep practicing on coding exercises (e.g. http://oj.leetcode.com/ http://oj.leetcode.com/). All of my friends spent several weeks working on the coding exercises got into Google (for those cared to apply). Several of them are really not that "smart" and they are below-average in project-coding & general computer science understanding (sorry my friends), but repeatedly working on coding exercises and even memorize some common problems' solution just works for Google or Facebook's hiring process. That process of cracking the coding exercises can be boring, though. I would be immediately returning to do my side-project even after I do one or two coding exercise. Not worth of the time at least for me; there are tons of great companies packed with people smarter than the average Googlers and they don't emphasize on algorithm in hiring process that much, why not work for them?
- coldcode 12y ago
  If that's true then Google's hiring process is as broken as everyone's. If below average people are hired by your process then it's the process that sucks. Of course if you keep doing that then eventually your company will suck too.
bstar77 12y ago
Being smart enough for google is a fucking myth. If it takes a genius to engineer google analytics or google ads, then thank god I'm a mere mortal.
cscurmudgeon 12y ago
Not this FUD again. If Googlers are so smart why are they not rich? There are lots of professions that the average Googler couldn't get into which makes more $ (e.g. finance, doing a profitable startup). If you ask an average Google, they would give similar ethics-based reasons like OP (e.g. Wall street is bad.) Get off your high horse, you are not smart, you just gamed the interview process. If you are smart, quit and start a company.

by etfb 12y ago

sk5t 12y ago

Although I agree with the thrust of your comment, re. intelligence, I will nevertheless downvote you for being petulant.

eternalban 12y ago
This (GP) current top comment is an indirect ad-hominem and taking valuable real estate in this page. Up voting you.

vixin 12y ago

Your honesty is to be applauded.

id 12y ago

It's not enough to be smart, you have to convince them that you're smart. And if the recruiters dislike you for whatever reason, there's nothing you can do about it.

jschuur 12y ago
I think Google's recruiters realize that some really smart people have certain personality types that may mean they don't perform well in classical interviews.
mmahemoff 12y ago
It's not enough to be smart reason 2: Intelligence is not the only quality they're selecting for.

threeseed 12y ago

Google in the beginning made hiring PhD types a priority but that has absolutely changed in recent years. It would be truly surprising if they would turn down someone with an exceptional list of open source projects or working experience.

lamby 12y ago

Mm. These sort of posts ("Why I won't work for Google", "Why I won't sign your NDA", "Why I won't do your technical interview") often come across as having a different agenda, and not necessarily one based on insecurity.

kumbasha 12y ago
What agenda? Google sucks, NDAs suck, etc?
- lamby 12y ago
  No; self-promotion, self-branding, etc.

mehrdada 12y ago

> The primary reason I won't work for Google is because I'm nowhere near smart enough I think plenty of people tend to vastly overestimate Google's (or Facebook's, ...) hiring bar. I know quite a few people who would be happy to work there and (I believe) can easily beat the hiring process, but they self-eliminate themselves from the game, so I definitely recommend to folks not to make a prejudice about whether they can get into, because they generally don't have many data points, and go interview anyway. Let them figure out whether you are smart enough or not; don't self-eliminate. Never let the widespread propaganda lead you to believe that everyone hired by a successful company in the valley is a genius. They collectively hire many thousands of people; it's hard to believe they are all geniuses.

67726e 12y ago
Honestly, I used to think the same way. I am a college dropout that has about 3 years professional experience (thoigh I have been programming since I was a kid) and I suddenly have a Google recruiter coming after me and trying to get me to interview. I have worked with a guy who now works at Google and some people who interviewed at one time or another. They say the same thing as the parent post; Google hires good programmers, and they happen to have some geniuses. Don't quit the race before you even start it.
- QuantumChaos 12y ago
  Think about the sociology of this: would you really expect a Google employee to say "Yes, we are almost all geniuses"? There is a lot of social pressure to attribute one's success to hard work (except of you're a White male ;-) ), luck, good mentorship, experience, meta-skills etc. rather than intelligence.
- recentdarkness 12y ago
  made the same experience. they also said they have different interview ways if someone does not have a degree in cs, math or anything what would give a more theoretical background. which is my case. still i am currently happy where i am and i am not really willing to relocate to any of their dev centers in Europe.

rikacomet 12y ago

Just want to note that, ethics are not just simply things people have been doing for years, but in fact human progress/efficiency measures built into social behavior. Such a ignorance towards ethics is like debt: initially you grow, keep doing it, and soon enough you take a nosedive.

sidcool 12y ago

I agree with you. I feel the same. At the same time I wonder if I suffer from the Impostor Syndrome. It's difficult to tell.

smikhanov 12y ago

It's also funny to see "I have to decline your job offer" line in the response to a recruiter's first cold email. Recruiter reaching out to him is nowhere near the actual job offer, so this guy publicly flatters himself big time.

ntakasaki 12y ago

I won't work for them because they're increasingly becoming more and more evil. As an example, they've been secretly building ad profiles of Google Apps for Education student users even if ads were turned off by the administrator to show them ads on other Google sites. They give schools free Chromebooks and all, but they should atleast declare what kind of profiling they're doing to the students who are forced to use the Google cloud for student email. They denied it when asked, but couldn't get their employees and lawyers to lie in federal court, silently removed language about not tracking from their site and finally a few days ago turned it off! If not for a lawsuit, this tracking would've not come to light. Couple that with massive spending on lobbying compared to Apple and MS makes me feel uneasy. The below article makes me wonder if they use paying Google Apps for Business email accounts to build ad profiles too? Anyone know? From http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2014/03/13/26google.h33.html http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2014/03/13/26google.h33.ht... : "As part of a potentially explosive lawsuit making its way through federal court, the giant online-services provider Google has acknowledged scanning the contents of millions of email messages sent and received by student users of the company’s Apps for Education tool suite for schools. In the suit, the Mountain View, Calif.-based company also faces accusations from plaintiffs that it went further, crossing a “creepy line” by using information gleaned from the scans to build “surreptitious” profiles of Apps for Education users that could be used for such purposes as targeted advertising." "A Google spokeswoman confirmed to Education Week that the company “scans and indexes” the emails of all Apps for Education users for a variety of purposes, including potential advertising, via automated processes that cannot be turned off—even for Apps for Education customers who elect not to receive ads. The company would not say whether those email scans are used to help build profiles of students or other Apps for Education users, but said the results of its data mining are not used to actually target ads to Apps for Education users unless they choose to receive them." ... "Student-data-privacy experts contend that the latter claim is contradicted by Google’s own court filings in the California suit. They describe the case as highly troubling and likely to further inflame rising national concern that protection of children’s private educational information is too lax." "Mr. Thiele said his district has used Google Apps for Education since 2008. Officials there have always been aware that the company does “back-end processing” of students’ email messages, he said, but the district’s agreement with Google precludes such data from being used to serve ads to students or staff members. As long as the company abides by those terms, Mr. Thiele said, “I don’t have any problem with it.” In an emailed statement provided to Education Week, Bram Bout, the director of Google Apps for Education, said that “ads in Gmail are turned off by default for Google Apps for Education and we have no plans to change that in the future.”" ... "Those plaintiffs in the California lawsuit allege that Google treats Google Apps for Education email users virtually the same as it treats consumer Gmail users. That means not only mining students’ email messages for key words and other information, but also using resulting data—including newly created derivative information, or “metadata”—for “secret user profiling” that could serve as the basis for such activities as delivering targeted ads in Google products other than Apps for Education, such as Google Search, Google+, and YouTube." "The plaintiffs allege that Google has employed such practices since around 2010, when it began using a new technology, known as Content Onebox, that allows the company to intercept and scan emails before they reach their intended recipients, rather than after messages are delivered to users’ inboxes, regardless of whether ads are turned off." "While the allegations by the plaintiffs are explosive, it’s the sworn declarations of Google representatives in response to their claims that have truly raised the eyebrows of observers and privacy experts. Contrary to the company’s earlier public statements, Google representatives acknowledged in a September motion to dismiss the plaintiffs’ request for class certification that the company’s consumer-privacy policy applies to Apps for Education users. Thus, Google argues, it has students’ (and other Apps for Education users’) consent to scan and process their emails." "In November, Kyle C. Wong, a lawyer representing Google, also argued in a formal declaration submitted to the court in opposition to the plaintiffs’ motion for class certification that the company’s data-mining practices are widely known, and that the plaintiffs’ complaints that the scanning and processing of their emails was done secretly are thus invalid. Mr. Wong cited extensive media coverage about Google’s data mining of Gmail consumer users’ messages, as well as the disclosures made by numerous universities to their students about how Google Apps for Education functions."

jw2013 12y ago

>The primary reason I won't work for Google is because I'm nowhere near smart enough. But as long as the hiring process keeps the same as of it is now, it can be hacked not that difficultly by keep practicing on coding exercises (e.g. http://oj.leetcode.com/ http://oj.leetcode.com/). All of my friends spent several weeks working on the coding exercises got into Google (for those cared to apply). Several of them are really not that "smart" and they are below-average in project-coding & general computer science understanding (sorry my friends), but repeatedly working on coding exercises and even memorize some common problems' solution just works for Google or Facebook's hiring process. That process of cracking the coding exercises can be boring, though. I would be immediately returning to do my side-project even after I do one or two coding exercise. Not worth of the time at least for me; there are tons of great companies packed with people smarter than the average Googlers and they don't emphasize on algorithm in hiring process that much, why not work for them?

coldcode 12y ago
If that's true then Google's hiring process is as broken as everyone's. If below average people are hired by your process then it's the process that sucks. Of course if you keep doing that then eventually your company will suck too.

bstar77 12y ago

Being smart enough for google is a fucking myth. If it takes a genius to engineer google analytics or google ads, then thank god I'm a mere mortal.

cscurmudgeon 12y ago

Not this FUD again. If Googlers are so smart why are they not rich? There are lots of professions that the average Googler couldn't get into which makes more $ (e.g. finance, doing a profitable startup). If you ask an average Google, they would give similar ethics-based reasons like OP (e.g. Wall street is bad.) Get off your high horse, you are not smart, you just gamed the interview process. If you are smart, quit and start a company.