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No, no, no. I agree with you. Fraud is fraud, I'm just saying this is the wrong law to use, and the outcome a successful prosecution under this law is uniquely

No, no, no. I agree with you. Fraud is fraud, I'm just saying this is the wrong law to use, and the outcome a successful prosecution under this law is uniquely troublesome for kickstarter.

dragonwriter 13y ago
How is it the wrong law to use? It seems to be exactly the law designed to address the kind of commercial fraud alleged. The troubling thing for kickstarter is a result of the fact that kickstarter bothv wants buyers not to see backing a project as a simple pre-order but simultaneous wants to create exactly the kind of obligation that exists with a pre-order and use it to reassure backers. (And given that that is the only thing backers get, there's pretty much no way for kickstarter to work without getting downed in outright take the money and run scheme without that kind of obligation.)
pessimizer 13y ago
It's not fraud because Kickstarter is not a store? The project creator made a promise to deliver. I'm not sure how Kickstarter's TOS (repeating that they have a responsibility to deliver, but that Kickstarter isn't a party to the contract and can't enforce it) immunizes them against their own obligations. I've sold things on message boards, which are also not stores. If I didn't deliver, why shouldn't I be prosecuted under the same law?
- lmm 13y ago
  > It's not fraud because Kickstarter is not a store? It's fraud, but it's not commerce, so this is the wrong law to use. > I've sold things on message boards, which are also not stores. If I didn't deliver, why shouldn't I be prosecuted under the same law? Because people on message boards know they're not buying from a store and can't expect the same level of state consumer protection, and it's not in the states interest to expend resources on protecting message board buyers. If you didn't deliver you'd be breaking the law and the people who bought things would be able to sue you, but I wouldn't expect the state AG to go after you.

No, no, no. I agree with you. Fraud is fraud, I'm just saying this is the wrong law to use, and the outcome a successful prosecution under this law is uniquely troublesome for kickstarter.

dragonwriter 13y ago

How is it the wrong law to use? It seems to be exactly the law designed to address the kind of commercial fraud alleged. The troubling thing for kickstarter is a result of the fact that kickstarter bothv wants buyers not to see backing a project as a simple pre-order but simultaneous wants to create exactly the kind of obligation that exists with a pre-order and use it to reassure backers. (And given that that is the only thing backers get, there's pretty much no way for kickstarter to work without getting downed in outright take the money and run scheme without that kind of obligation.)

pessimizer 13y ago

It's not fraud because Kickstarter is not a store? The project creator made a promise to deliver. I'm not sure how Kickstarter's TOS (repeating that they have a responsibility to deliver, but that Kickstarter isn't a party to the contract and can't enforce it) immunizes them against their own obligations. I've sold things on message boards, which are also not stores. If I didn't deliver, why shouldn't I be prosecuted under the same law?

lmm 13y ago
> It's not fraud because Kickstarter is not a store? It's fraud, but it's not commerce, so this is the wrong law to use. > I've sold things on message boards, which are also not stores. If I didn't deliver, why shouldn't I be prosecuted under the same law? Because people on message boards know they're not buying from a store and can't expect the same level of state consumer protection, and it's not in the states interest to expend resources on protecting message board buyers. If you didn't deliver you'd be breaking the law and the people who bought things would be able to sue you, but I wouldn't expect the state AG to go after you.