7 ms·

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a traged

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

britta 12y ago
You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training workshop that you can encourage your company (or your friends' companies) to do: http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/ http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- thenmar 12y ago
  I'm curious about how controversial this post seems. It has been bouncing back and forth from light gray to black. Is it that people disagree with educating others? That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair?
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    I generally agree with the parent and I upvoted it, but I did so in spite of having a visceral negative reaction to buzzwords like "allies" (implies that I'm somehow taking a risk/taking sides in a war) and "patriarchy" (vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness).
  - thenmar 12y ago
    I'm replying to this because I can't reply to ForHackernews's comment, but this really needs to be said: "patriarchy" is most certainly NOT "vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness". To say that is to dismiss decades of feminist work. If you are genuinely curious about this, the book Feminism is for Everybody (by bell hooks) is a great, accessible introduction to feminism and the (admittedly esoteric and ivory-towery) language you need to talk about it.
    - jdp23 12y ago
      Well said. Just like "dynamic typing" and "object-oriented" these are terms of art. And great suggestion on Feminism is for Everybody.
    - ForHackernews 12y ago
      I apologize if I wasn't clear, I think the issue is that "patriarchy" means many things to many people. Maybe you have some clear definition in mind, but that may or may not be what anyone else is talking about when they say "patriarchy" I've read bell hooks, and I consider myself a feminist. But the problem is that there's no universally agreed-upon definition. How will we know when patriarchy is dead? What metrics are we judging this by?
  - zem 12y ago
    mostly that shanley (the blogger linked in the first post) tends to be a polarising figure
  - mcantelon 12y ago
    >That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair? When ideological lingo is used to communicate, it's going to, right or wrong, cause some folks to stop reading.
    - ben0x539 12y ago
      What ideologically neutral lingo do you propose?
    - wpietri 12y ago
      What name would you suggest for the system that oppressed women for millennia?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- gfodor 12y ago
  Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will be framed as oppressive and sexist due to the gender of the person it comes from. Shanley sees all men as de facto oppressors (of varying degrees) due to their gender and the existence of the patriarchy. (Don't believe me? Look at her point: "Men need to work with each other on sexism. It is not okay to lean on the class of people you oppress to solve your system or your discomfort with it.".) This is not a productive avenue for making progress IMHO.
  - zorpner 12y ago
    This is not a productive avenue for making progress IMHO. As Roizen points out in her article, while she believes that things have improved, she's still often the only woman in the room. Other women, like Shanley Kane, believe that working within the system and ignoring or brushing off sexist behavior when it's experienced merely propagates the (unacceptable) status quo. They're different ways of looking at the problem from people who actually experiencing it, and they're both valid perspectives. Listening to the perspectives of women and trying to understand where they're coming from, even if it makes you uncomfortable, is literally the first step towards making progress.
  - jdp23 12y ago
    I've shown Shanley's post to quite a few women in technology (including some diversity experts) and they all think her concrete suggestions are excellent. [As do I.] So I strongly suggest any guys who really want to help read it and act on the suggestions even if they would prefer a different framing. And specifically, which of her points do you disagree with? Are you saying that men don't need to work with each other on their sexism? Or, are you saying that instead of men taking a responsibility to address sexism or overcome their discomfort with this issue they should instead lean on women?
    - 12y ago
- jdp23 12y ago
  britt's post is a substantive answer to 'news_to_me's question, with links off to useful resources. What does it say about the HN community that it was downvoted? [And by the way, this is an example of the 'speaking up' that britta mentioned. Guys, when you see this kind of hostile-to-women behavior on HN, call it out.]
  - abracar 12y ago
    That some of us don't find these resources that useful or relevant?
    - jdp23 12y ago
      Thanks for the response. If you don't find the resources useful or relevant, it seems to me that it would be better to reply with your reasoning and links to other resources. Or are you using "downvote" to mean "I disagree"?
      - abracar 12y ago
        I can't downvote yet so I'm not one of those who did - I was trying to give an explanation. I don't know the exact rules for downvoting but I assume some use it to say " not helpful".
    - huu 12y ago
      Then perhaps it would be helpful to point out why you don't find the resources useful or relevant. Downvoting should be reserved for low-substance comments, not for hiding (it literally has the effect of hiding things from other people) information which you think is useless to you.
cjbprime 12y ago
It seems unlikely that, in a hostile industry, you never see anything hostile happening yourself, right? So you can (as we all should) try to call men out on everything they do that's exclusionary.
xbryanx 12y ago
You (and me) are in the most powerful group to do something about this issue. First off, check that you are never participating in the behavior you don't want to see. I'm amazed how often I have to check myself. Second, use your position of power as a white male to call out other men, privately or otherwise, when you see them behaving like any of the reprobates in this article. You'll be amazed at how much weight your voice can have in these situations. Third, proactively advocate for women.
calibraxis 12y ago
You can amplify their voices and efforts. For example, depending on your power, you can take Shanley's articles like this (https://medium.com/about-work/514a6edcce2c https://medium.com/about-work/514a6edcce2c) and implement them. Or you can disclose your salary. Or install a simple code of conduct. Society stamped the male designation on my forehead, and feel like there's no end of wonderful things I do that have an immediate impact. Which improve people's dignity and quality of life. Do I attack patriarchy? Good. Do I attack the boss's ability to extract unconscionable hours, dignity and money from his wage-slaves? Good. But you know that movie Avatar, which portrays the white male hero "leading" an army of poor blue savages? Avoid such corrosive social nonsense, and you'll spend a lot less energy. Simply assist and amplify the efforts of others, share literature which isn't afraid to be radical, and you'll go far.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  I'm getting an odd vibe from your comment. Almost as if you try to be some heroic anarchist who has swallowed the red pill, except a rather juvenile one. Indeed, I'm curious how your being a male lets you do "no end of wonderful things that have an immediate impact". Either you're in a high socioeconomic position, or you're overstating your abilities significantly. "Attacking the patriarchy" doesn't mean much, and the latter sounds like it comes straight out of a parodic parable. Finally, that colorful interpretation of Avatar was interesting, though not particularly innovative.
logfromblammo 12y ago
You're not entirely powerless. There is exactly one person on the planet that you can force to not be an asshole. Never apologize for anything that is not your fault, and don't cry about the things you have no power to change. There is no particular reason to wave someone else's war banner. You won't get any trophies or medals for it. So speak for yourself. And if anyone ever tells you to "check your privilege," translate that as "count your blessings," and let them go about their own business. And I won't say anything more about it, since these sorts of topics tend to attract "downvote for disagreement" moderation.
colmvp 12y ago
"Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me." Eh. I work in tech in the Bay Area, alongside people from Europe, Asia, South America, and North America. I would say the amount of diversity is far more than what I see working at other industries. Is there a gender imbalance? Sure, but I don't see it as a bad thing considering that not every industry has equal representation of both races and gender. For example, I rarely see public initiatives to get more Asian men to be hollywood stars, models, politicians, teachers, etc. and that doesn't bother me.
jquery 12y ago
Have you worked in other industries? Most of them don't hold a candle to tech when it comes to diversity. It's slightly lacking in a few visible areas, but beyond that it is truly one of the most diverse industries in the world. My coworkers are from all over the world, with a huge variety of backgrounds. Get to know them. If you truly work in a mono-culture, that's not the fault of tech, that's an issue with your hiring manager(s).
sufofea 12y ago
yeah, thanks for trolling sucker. As if you king of all white male community and speaking for all ! Instead of trolling with hidden name why don't you act in reality ? Oh wait, I am so WHITE i can't control my dick at party.
whiddershins 12y ago
There's an aphorism that true power is never given, it is taken. If that's the case, it actually is entirely up to the oppressed to take power, and the most the people in power can do to support it is not stand in their way.
- ben0x539 12y ago
  I don't think that's the best conclusion to draw. I'm taking that to mean that the oppressed can't just wait for the oppressors to wake up one day and realize they've been wrong all along. But I don't think it means we get to stand around and do nothing.
wpietri 12y ago
One thing you can do: talk to people like yourself. It is crazy, but there are people who will believe you when you tell them this stuff is a problem in a way they won't believe others. Ditto for proposing solutions. E.g., next time your company is looking to fill positions, try saying, "Say, our pool of applicants last time wasn't very diverse. I'd like to reach out to groups X, Y, and Z, and also a ask wider variety of people vet our job description just to make sure we aren't giving off the wrong signals." It is much easier for a white dude to say that. You can also do a lot to signal boost. Passing along stories, links, and books is one thing. (I'll often send people to Everyday Sexism or Project Unbreakable, for example, or to particular things on the geek feminism wiki.) And if you notice non-white-male people getting shortchanged at work, do something about it. For example, I've heard a lot of women in tech tell stories of saying things in meetings and getting totally ignored. So be the person who says, "Hey, Jane's point is really interesting, and we went right by it. Jane, could you say that again, and maybe expand a little?" And you can do things right here. Among a number of groups, Hacker News is basically seen as a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Call out bullshit. Point out the distorting effects of privilege. When people are derailing, don't let it slide.

britta 12y ago

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training workshop that you can encourage your company (or your friends' companies) to do: http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/ http://adainitiative.org/what-we-do/workshops-and-training/

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
thenmar 12y ago
I'm curious about how controversial this post seems. It has been bouncing back and forth from light gray to black. Is it that people disagree with educating others? That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair?
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  I generally agree with the parent and I upvoted it, but I did so in spite of having a visceral negative reaction to buzzwords like "allies" (implies that I'm somehow taking a risk/taking sides in a war) and "patriarchy" (vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness).
- thenmar 12y ago
  I'm replying to this because I can't reply to ForHackernews's comment, but this really needs to be said: "patriarchy" is most certainly NOT "vague and ill-defined to the point of meaninglessness". To say that is to dismiss decades of feminist work. If you are genuinely curious about this, the book Feminism is for Everybody (by bell hooks) is a great, accessible introduction to feminism and the (admittedly esoteric and ivory-towery) language you need to talk about it.
  - jdp23 12y ago
    Well said. Just like "dynamic typing" and "object-oriented" these are terms of art. And great suggestion on Feminism is for Everybody.
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    I apologize if I wasn't clear, I think the issue is that "patriarchy" means many things to many people. Maybe you have some clear definition in mind, but that may or may not be what anyone else is talking about when they say "patriarchy" I've read bell hooks, and I consider myself a feminist. But the problem is that there's no universally agreed-upon definition. How will we know when patriarchy is dead? What metrics are we judging this by?
- zem 12y ago
  mostly that shanley (the blogger linked in the first post) tends to be a polarising figure
- mcantelon 12y ago
  >That they have a knee-jerk reaction to the word "patriarchy" and dismiss anyone who uses it? That they idea of "allies training" is somehow repulsive and unfair? When ideological lingo is used to communicate, it's going to, right or wrong, cause some folks to stop reading.
  - ben0x539 12y ago
    What ideologically neutral lingo do you propose?
  - wpietri 12y ago
    What name would you suggest for the system that oppressed women for millennia?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
gfodor 12y ago
Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will be framed as oppressive and sexist due to the gender of the person it comes from. Shanley sees all men as de facto oppressors (of varying degrees) due to their gender and the existence of the patriarchy. (Don't believe me? Look at her point: "Men need to work with each other on sexism. It is not okay to lean on the class of people you oppress to solve your system or your discomfort with it.".) This is not a productive avenue for making progress IMHO.
- zorpner 12y ago
  This is not a productive avenue for making progress IMHO. As Roizen points out in her article, while she believes that things have improved, she's still often the only woman in the room. Other women, like Shanley Kane, believe that working within the system and ignoring or brushing off sexist behavior when it's experienced merely propagates the (unacceptable) status quo. They're different ways of looking at the problem from people who actually experiencing it, and they're both valid perspectives. Listening to the perspectives of women and trying to understand where they're coming from, even if it makes you uncomfortable, is literally the first step towards making progress.
- jdp23 12y ago
  I've shown Shanley's post to quite a few women in technology (including some diversity experts) and they all think her concrete suggestions are excellent. [As do I.] So I strongly suggest any guys who really want to help read it and act on the suggestions even if they would prefer a different framing. And specifically, which of her points do you disagree with? Are you saying that men don't need to work with each other on their sexism? Or, are you saying that instead of men taking a responsibility to address sexism or overcome their discomfort with this issue they should instead lean on women?
  - 12y ago
jdp23 12y ago
britt's post is a substantive answer to 'news_to_me's question, with links off to useful resources. What does it say about the HN community that it was downvoted? [And by the way, this is an example of the 'speaking up' that britta mentioned. Guys, when you see this kind of hostile-to-women behavior on HN, call it out.]
- abracar 12y ago
  That some of us don't find these resources that useful or relevant?
  - jdp23 12y ago
    Thanks for the response. If you don't find the resources useful or relevant, it seems to me that it would be better to reply with your reasoning and links to other resources. Or are you using "downvote" to mean "I disagree"?
    - abracar 12y ago
      I can't downvote yet so I'm not one of those who did - I was trying to give an explanation. I don't know the exact rules for downvoting but I assume some use it to say " not helpful".
  - huu 12y ago
    Then perhaps it would be helpful to point out why you don't find the resources useful or relevant. Downvoting should be reserved for low-substance comments, not for hiding (it literally has the effect of hiding things from other people) information which you think is useless to you.

cjbprime 12y ago

It seems unlikely that, in a hostile industry, you never see anything hostile happening yourself, right? So you can (as we all should) try to call men out on everything they do that's exclusionary.

xbryanx 12y ago

You (and me) are in the most powerful group to do something about this issue. First off, check that you are never participating in the behavior you don't want to see. I'm amazed how often I have to check myself. Second, use your position of power as a white male to call out other men, privately or otherwise, when you see them behaving like any of the reprobates in this article. You'll be amazed at how much weight your voice can have in these situations. Third, proactively advocate for women.

calibraxis 12y ago

You can amplify their voices and efforts. For example, depending on your power, you can take Shanley's articles like this (https://medium.com/about-work/514a6edcce2c https://medium.com/about-work/514a6edcce2c) and implement them. Or you can disclose your salary. Or install a simple code of conduct. Society stamped the male designation on my forehead, and feel like there's no end of wonderful things I do that have an immediate impact. Which improve people's dignity and quality of life. Do I attack patriarchy? Good. Do I attack the boss's ability to extract unconscionable hours, dignity and money from his wage-slaves? Good. But you know that movie Avatar, which portrays the white male hero "leading" an army of poor blue savages? Avoid such corrosive social nonsense, and you'll spend a lot less energy. Simply assist and amplify the efforts of others, share literature which isn't afraid to be radical, and you'll go far.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
I'm getting an odd vibe from your comment. Almost as if you try to be some heroic anarchist who has swallowed the red pill, except a rather juvenile one. Indeed, I'm curious how your being a male lets you do "no end of wonderful things that have an immediate impact". Either you're in a high socioeconomic position, or you're overstating your abilities significantly. "Attacking the patriarchy" doesn't mean much, and the latter sounds like it comes straight out of a parodic parable. Finally, that colorful interpretation of Avatar was interesting, though not particularly innovative.

logfromblammo 12y ago

You're not entirely powerless. There is exactly one person on the planet that you can force to not be an asshole. Never apologize for anything that is not your fault, and don't cry about the things you have no power to change. There is no particular reason to wave someone else's war banner. You won't get any trophies or medals for it. So speak for yourself. And if anyone ever tells you to "check your privilege," translate that as "count your blessings," and let them go about their own business. And I won't say anything more about it, since these sorts of topics tend to attract "downvote for disagreement" moderation.

colmvp 12y ago

"Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me." Eh. I work in tech in the Bay Area, alongside people from Europe, Asia, South America, and North America. I would say the amount of diversity is far more than what I see working at other industries. Is there a gender imbalance? Sure, but I don't see it as a bad thing considering that not every industry has equal representation of both races and gender. For example, I rarely see public initiatives to get more Asian men to be hollywood stars, models, politicians, teachers, etc. and that doesn't bother me.

jquery 12y ago

Have you worked in other industries? Most of them don't hold a candle to tech when it comes to diversity. It's slightly lacking in a few visible areas, but beyond that it is truly one of the most diverse industries in the world. My coworkers are from all over the world, with a huge variety of backgrounds. Get to know them. If you truly work in a mono-culture, that's not the fault of tech, that's an issue with your hiring manager(s).

sufofea 12y ago

yeah, thanks for trolling sucker. As if you king of all white male community and speaking for all ! Instead of trolling with hidden name why don't you act in reality ? Oh wait, I am so WHITE i can't control my dick at party.

whiddershins 12y ago

There's an aphorism that true power is never given, it is taken. If that's the case, it actually is entirely up to the oppressed to take power, and the most the people in power can do to support it is not stand in their way.

ben0x539 12y ago
I don't think that's the best conclusion to draw. I'm taking that to mean that the oppressed can't just wait for the oppressors to wake up one day and realize they've been wrong all along. But I don't think it means we get to stand around and do nothing.

wpietri 12y ago

One thing you can do: talk to people like yourself. It is crazy, but there are people who will believe you when you tell them this stuff is a problem in a way they won't believe others. Ditto for proposing solutions. E.g., next time your company is looking to fill positions, try saying, "Say, our pool of applicants last time wasn't very diverse. I'd like to reach out to groups X, Y, and Z, and also a ask wider variety of people vet our job description just to make sure we aren't giving off the wrong signals." It is much easier for a white dude to say that. You can also do a lot to signal boost. Passing along stories, links, and books is one thing. (I'll often send people to Everyday Sexism or Project Unbreakable, for example, or to particular things on the geek feminism wiki.) And if you notice non-white-male people getting shortchanged at work, do something about it. For example, I've heard a lot of women in tech tell stories of saying things in meetings and getting totally ignored. So be the person who says, "Hey, Jane's point is really interesting, and we went right by it. Jane, could you say that again, and maybe expand a little?" And you can do things right here. Among a number of groups, Hacker News is basically seen as a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Call out bullshit. Point out the distorting effects of privilege. When people are derailing, don't let it slide.