4 ms·

Egyptians may have moved massive pyramid stones on wet sand

41 points by era86 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- bri3d 12y ago
  That's a terrible summary; even the strong proponent of the Egyptian concrete theory quoted in the article suggests 10-20% of the blocks were cast of a synthetic material. That means that there's still reason to go looking for the method of transport for the other 80-90% of the blocks.
te_platt 12y ago
I love seeing how clever people figure out ways to solve problems with the tools they have. Also good to remember hacking didn't start with and doesn't only apply to computers.
- whoismua 12y ago
  computers have only been around for a few decades, "people" have been solving their daily problems for millions of years.
eurleif 12y ago
I like this part, in reference to a painting that shows water being poured on the sand in front of a sled: >“In fact, Egyptologists had been interpreting the water as part of a purification ritual, and had never sought a scientific explanation. And friction is a terribly complicated problem; even if you realize that wet sand is harder – as in a sandcastle, you cannot build on dry sand — the consequences of that for friction are hard to predict.” Makes me wonder what other practical things we might be misinterpreting as rituals. Are we constantly ignoring ancient cultures' innovations because we assume they have no practical purpose?
junto 12y ago
The picture is quite convincing indeed... once I was biased by the explanation! For those of you that haven't read the article yet, I suggest you study the picture with the hieroglyphics in detail first and then read the conclusion! Edit: Just to be clear, I wanted others to have the benefit of seeing the picture before the explanation, because after the fact I had no idea whether I had been biased by what I had read first! I wasn't trying to suggest it was biased per se! I have no idea whether I was biased or not. I can't undo history.
- eurleif 12y ago
  I think it's quite convincing once you know the scientific fact that dragging an object requires half the work on wet sand. What's the alternative: that the Egyptians did at some point drag objects on wet sand, but that they didn't know it made things easier? Wouldn't they immediately learn that the first time they tried it, even if they first tried it for a different reason?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Maybe all that happened is that they tried picking up their work after some rain had fallen (this does happen, even there) and they found the work to go much easier. Then when it dried up again they found it got harder, so they re-created the conditions artificially.
    - junto 12y ago
      I imagine many discoveries are made in this manner. I.e. accidental. Sometimes it can take centuries though for someone to see something obvious and realise its potential.
- chc 12y ago
  OK, I did that. Still haven't read the article yet, actually. It looks like a statue on sled with a guy pouring something out in front of it. And having now read the article, it appears that's exactly the same conclusion it reaches.
amalag 12y ago
Stephen Colbert tweeted: A new theory says wet sand was used to build the pyramids. But where did the aliens get all that wet sand???
AlexMuir 12y ago
"[A team of eight researchers led by Daniel Bonn] placed a laboratory version of an Egyptian sledge in a bin of sand that had been dried in the oven. Then they threw down some water, and measured the grains’ stiffness." Surely the way to test this theory isn't to make a model of a sledge, and bake some wet sand in an oven in your lab in Amsterdam! Go to Cairo, build a wooden sledge, get some water and fifty men for an hour and see whether one can sledge two tons across wet sand. I quite fancy testing it out myself. Perhaps I could run a Kickstarter to build a pyramid.
- afarrell 12y ago
  Why Cairo? Why not Fort Mohave, Arizona?
  - stronglikedan 12y ago
    Cairo may be more accessible from Amsterdam.
  - Nzen 12y ago
    Sand in Cairo may be different from Arizona sand https://www.flickr.com/photos/bunnyfrogs/galleries/72157627587834618/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bunnyfrogs/galleries/721576275...
  - noonespecial 12y ago
    I'm not sure I wouldn't rather explain to Egyptian vs American immigration officials that I wanted to go out into the desert with a bunch of people and "build an experimental..."
    - untog 12y ago
      I'm not sure you'd want to be a Westerner in the deserts of Egypt right now, either. It's not exactly a safe place.
- DanBC 12y ago
  But doing the lab experiment is a useful first step, before you get on a plane and travel a few thousand miles! Egypt today is probably quite different to the Egypt of 4,500 years ago. Would that influence the experiement at all?
zyxley 12y ago
> In all, the scientists say, “the Egyptians were probably aware of this handy trick.” Wheelwrights hate him! Use this one weird old trick to make your pyramid bigger!
whoismua 12y ago
OK, but how did they move the water? I can't load the Uni page to see how much water was needed but if we're talking miles or tens of miles, we should be talking about a lot of water. Water that dries very quickly so the path has to be wet again for the next load.
- thornofmight 12y ago
  The article mentions that the sand doesn't require a lot of water. Check out the picture with the guy standing on the sleigh pouring water: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2014/05/EgyptianPRL-1.jpg http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/up... They could probably load up an empty sleigh with water and then drag it to the rocks.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  I think that egyptians had access to irrigation technology. And from what I remember as a kid on the beach you don't need that much water - you only need to create a film. A few ways come to mind - a channel from nile parallel to the hauling route. On the barge itself. Although I would have used combination of highly polished wood, leather/hides on wood planks and cooking oil. And crews that just take the back pieces and move them in front.
  - whoismua 12y ago
    I agree, but the alternative to have more slaves (plenty of them) pull and have them pull harder. I guess it depends how far the rocks were moved. I know they were quarried far, far away but then moved via the Nile. Now from the Nile to the final location is how far?
alex_doom 12y ago
Well technically, the slaves built the pyramids. They just don't get the credit in the README.
- aspidistra 12y ago
  Unless Bertolt Brecht is writing it.
mrbill 12y ago
How many times is someone going to discover yet another way the Egyptians built the pyramids?
kabdib 12y ago
In 3,000 years, I'd love to see what archeologists have to say about our code (assuming any of it survives, which IMHO is a long shot): "Ancient engineers used text editors to write machine language." "But how did they construct network packets?" "With Emacs macros. And purification rituals involving Python." "No way. It had to have been aliens."
maw 12y ago
If the water had the appropriate level of wetness, something called “capillary bridges” — extremely small droplets of water that glue together individual grains of sand — would form. I wonder what happened when the water wasn't wet enough.

41 points by era86 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

bri3d 12y ago
That's a terrible summary; even the strong proponent of the Egyptian concrete theory quoted in the article suggests 10-20% of the blocks were cast of a synthetic material. That means that there's still reason to go looking for the method of transport for the other 80-90% of the blocks.

te_platt 12y ago

I love seeing how clever people figure out ways to solve problems with the tools they have. Also good to remember hacking didn't start with and doesn't only apply to computers.

whoismua 12y ago
computers have only been around for a few decades, "people" have been solving their daily problems for millions of years.

eurleif 12y ago

I like this part, in reference to a painting that shows water being poured on the sand in front of a sled: >“In fact, Egyptologists had been interpreting the water as part of a purification ritual, and had never sought a scientific explanation. And friction is a terribly complicated problem; even if you realize that wet sand is harder – as in a sandcastle, you cannot build on dry sand — the consequences of that for friction are hard to predict.” Makes me wonder what other practical things we might be misinterpreting as rituals. Are we constantly ignoring ancient cultures' innovations because we assume they have no practical purpose?

junto 12y ago

The picture is quite convincing indeed... once I was biased by the explanation! For those of you that haven't read the article yet, I suggest you study the picture with the hieroglyphics in detail first and then read the conclusion! Edit: Just to be clear, I wanted others to have the benefit of seeing the picture before the explanation, because after the fact I had no idea whether I had been biased by what I had read first! I wasn't trying to suggest it was biased per se! I have no idea whether I was biased or not. I can't undo history.

eurleif 12y ago
I think it's quite convincing once you know the scientific fact that dragging an object requires half the work on wet sand. What's the alternative: that the Egyptians did at some point drag objects on wet sand, but that they didn't know it made things easier? Wouldn't they immediately learn that the first time they tried it, even if they first tried it for a different reason?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Maybe all that happened is that they tried picking up their work after some rain had fallen (this does happen, even there) and they found the work to go much easier. Then when it dried up again they found it got harder, so they re-created the conditions artificially.
  - junto 12y ago
    I imagine many discoveries are made in this manner. I.e. accidental. Sometimes it can take centuries though for someone to see something obvious and realise its potential.
chc 12y ago
OK, I did that. Still haven't read the article yet, actually. It looks like a statue on sled with a guy pouring something out in front of it. And having now read the article, it appears that's exactly the same conclusion it reaches.

amalag 12y ago

Stephen Colbert tweeted: A new theory says wet sand was used to build the pyramids. But where did the aliens get all that wet sand???

AlexMuir 12y ago

"[A team of eight researchers led by Daniel Bonn] placed a laboratory version of an Egyptian sledge in a bin of sand that had been dried in the oven. Then they threw down some water, and measured the grains’ stiffness." Surely the way to test this theory isn't to make a model of a sledge, and bake some wet sand in an oven in your lab in Amsterdam! Go to Cairo, build a wooden sledge, get some water and fifty men for an hour and see whether one can sledge two tons across wet sand. I quite fancy testing it out myself. Perhaps I could run a Kickstarter to build a pyramid.

afarrell 12y ago
Why Cairo? Why not Fort Mohave, Arizona?
- stronglikedan 12y ago
  Cairo may be more accessible from Amsterdam.
- Nzen 12y ago
  Sand in Cairo may be different from Arizona sand https://www.flickr.com/photos/bunnyfrogs/galleries/72157627587834618/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/bunnyfrogs/galleries/721576275...
- noonespecial 12y ago
  I'm not sure I wouldn't rather explain to Egyptian vs American immigration officials that I wanted to go out into the desert with a bunch of people and "build an experimental..."
  - untog 12y ago
    I'm not sure you'd want to be a Westerner in the deserts of Egypt right now, either. It's not exactly a safe place.
DanBC 12y ago
But doing the lab experiment is a useful first step, before you get on a plane and travel a few thousand miles! Egypt today is probably quite different to the Egypt of 4,500 years ago. Would that influence the experiement at all?

zyxley 12y ago

> In all, the scientists say, “the Egyptians were probably aware of this handy trick.” Wheelwrights hate him! Use this one weird old trick to make your pyramid bigger!

whoismua 12y ago

OK, but how did they move the water? I can't load the Uni page to see how much water was needed but if we're talking miles or tens of miles, we should be talking about a lot of water. Water that dries very quickly so the path has to be wet again for the next load.

thornofmight 12y ago
The article mentions that the sand doesn't require a lot of water. Check out the picture with the guy standing on the sleigh pouring water: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2014/05/EgyptianPRL-1.jpg http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/up... They could probably load up an empty sleigh with water and then drag it to the rocks.
venomsnake 12y ago
I think that egyptians had access to irrigation technology. And from what I remember as a kid on the beach you don't need that much water - you only need to create a film. A few ways come to mind - a channel from nile parallel to the hauling route. On the barge itself. Although I would have used combination of highly polished wood, leather/hides on wood planks and cooking oil. And crews that just take the back pieces and move them in front.
- whoismua 12y ago
  I agree, but the alternative to have more slaves (plenty of them) pull and have them pull harder. I guess it depends how far the rocks were moved. I know they were quarried far, far away but then moved via the Nile. Now from the Nile to the final location is how far?

alex_doom 12y ago

Well technically, the slaves built the pyramids. They just don't get the credit in the README.

aspidistra 12y ago
Unless Bertolt Brecht is writing it.

mrbill 12y ago

How many times is someone going to discover yet another way the Egyptians built the pyramids?

kabdib 12y ago

In 3,000 years, I'd love to see what archeologists have to say about our code (assuming any of it survives, which IMHO is a long shot): "Ancient engineers used text editors to write machine language." "But how did they construct network packets?" "With Emacs macros. And purification rituals involving Python." "No way. It had to have been aliens."

maw 12y ago

If the water had the appropriate level of wetness, something called “capillary bridges” — extremely small droplets of water that glue together individual grains of sand — would form. I wonder what happened when the water wasn't wet enough.