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Just to be clear, the store selling gift cards had a signed out stating that they will report excessive number of cash transactions to the authorities because t

by jnbiche 13y ago

Just to be clear, the store selling gift cards had a signed out stating that they will report excessive number of cash transactions to the authorities because they are forced to by FinCEN and other U.S. regulatory bodies. If a merchant fails to report cash gift card sells over the legal limit per day, they can be criminally prosecuted and put in jail. So please don't blame the merchants for this. I can assure you that the merchant doesn't care if someone wants to pay in cash. In fact, they prefer it usually (e.g., cash discounts at gas stations). What people see as "corporate oppression" is quite often government oppression. Personally, I think both corporations and multinational corporations are engaged in this kind of misbehavior. Indeed, the line between powerful politicians and powerful corporate leaders blurs more and more each passing year. If each side of the political spectrum continues to ignore the fact that both government and large corporations are at fault here, things will never get better.

gress 13y ago
As the writer of a comment mentioning corporate oppression, I agree with you. The government is a huge part of this. The true false dichotomy is when we claim that the government is good while corporations are bad, or the converse. The government works for the powerful, and the powerful are corporations.
wahsd 13y ago
Government and corporate oppression go hand in hand because they have the same intentions, exploitation and control.
theorique 13y ago
In the financial services area (brokerage accounts, etc), there are real consequences for employees in the industry who don't comply with anti-money laundering laws. If "Abdul al-Qaeda" makes hundreds of all-cash deposits under the $10K reporting limit into his brokerage account, that still represents a potential red flag. Employees who are servicing that account could face serious penalties (from the government) for their failure to look into potential money-laundering for nefarious purposes. The laws are written vaguely, so such employees can never be 100% certain that they are in compliance.
- MartinMond 13y ago
  I guess the most well-known case is HSBC laundering drug money. Do you know any "real consequences" for employees that resulted of it?
  - theorique 13y ago
    Substantial fines and imprisonment are potential consequences. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5330 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5330 I don't know of specific instances where they were enforced (IANAL, etc). This page [pdf] cites some specific penalties but does not refer to specific cases http://www.anti-moneylaundering.com/pdf/Example_Fines_and_Penalties.pdf http://www.anti-moneylaundering.com/pdf/Example_Fines_and_Pe...
- PhantomGremlin 13y ago
  This crime is called "structuring", and it carries significant penalties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring
crazy1van 13y ago
Great point. Instead of passing new privacy laws that will limit consumer's choices, let's first get rid of the laws blocking those consumers willing to trade some convenience for some privacy.
- gress 13y ago
  Yeah - let's further concentrate power in the hands of the wealthy. /s
dripton 13y ago
The FinCEN threshold is $10000. The article mentioned buying enough Amazon gift cards to buy a stroller. The most expensive stroller I could find on Amazon in a minute was less than $600. So I don't think we can blame the government in this particular case. Probably just a lazy clerk who didn't feel like selling that many gift cards.
- adsfasdf23f23f 13y ago
  The author didn't indicate that they weren't able to buy the gift cards, just that the sign existed.
- jnbiche 13y ago
  First, the $10,000 doesn't apply to "closed-loop" gift cards, like Visa or MasterCard gift cards, which is likely what the OP may have been looking to buy (although it's possible she was looking for Amazon gift cards). In the case of closed-loop cards, the limit is $2000 a day, not $10,000. Second, that's a 10,000 limit per day, not per purchase. Third, as someone else indicated, no clerk said anything to the OP. She just noticed the sign saying that large gift card purchases would be reported to the authorities, which would make me uneasy as well (how much is "large"? to what authorities?).
_delirium 13y ago
> e.g., cash discounts at gas stations This one, oddly enough, is only possible because of the government: in states where it's possible for gas stations to give cash discounts, this is only because state law overrides merchant agreements that otherwise prohibit it. Otherwise, credit-card merchant agreements (i.e. corporate policy, not government policy) generally prohibit differential gas/card pricing. As a merchant you could choose not to do business with Visa at all, but if you do business with Visa, you aren't allow to give cash discounts by the contract terms.
- dubfan 13y ago
  As of January 27, 2013, Visa and Mastercard allow credit card surcharges. Prior to this I believe merchant agreements did allow for cash payment discounts, just not "surcharges", even though they are practically the same thing. http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/support/surcharge-rules.html http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/support/surcharge-rules.h... http://usa.visa.com/personal/get-help/checkout-fees.jsp http://usa.visa.com/personal/get-help/checkout-fees.jsp
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I thought that even that concession was due to a court ruling or other regulatory finding, wasn't it?
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    ... only in USA, and only because forced by laws/litigation.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    It was a long time ago that I worked a register, but at one point merchant agreements definitely disallowed cash discounts. I knew because on a slow day I actually read the fine print. The boss, correctly, didn't care that their discount for cash was forbidden, but I was young enough to be a little scandalized.
mrxd 13y ago
> both government and large corporations are at fault here Small companies can be equally guilty of misusing data. The best example is credit reporting data, which is often used to screen out job applicants and creates a downward spiral where falling behind on your bills due to a job loss harms your credit which prevents you from finding another job. This has nothing to do with big multinationals. We've gotten so used to the advice about "building credit" that we've forgotten that it's really corporate surveillance. But at least its regulated, unlike Facebook.
pron 13y ago
> What people see as "corporate oppression" is quite often government oppression. I don't know what "quite often" means, but most of the times it isn't. The government is looking for criminals. Corporations collect data to increase profits. Some of the data collection is done to catch criminals, but most (actually, virtually all) of it is done in the name of profit.

by jnbiche 13y ago

gress 13y ago

As the writer of a comment mentioning corporate oppression, I agree with you. The government is a huge part of this. The true false dichotomy is when we claim that the government is good while corporations are bad, or the converse. The government works for the powerful, and the powerful are corporations.

wahsd 13y ago

Government and corporate oppression go hand in hand because they have the same intentions, exploitation and control.

theorique 13y ago

In the financial services area (brokerage accounts, etc), there are real consequences for employees in the industry who don't comply with anti-money laundering laws. If "Abdul al-Qaeda" makes hundreds of all-cash deposits under the $10K reporting limit into his brokerage account, that still represents a potential red flag. Employees who are servicing that account could face serious penalties (from the government) for their failure to look into potential money-laundering for nefarious purposes. The laws are written vaguely, so such employees can never be 100% certain that they are in compliance.

MartinMond 13y ago
I guess the most well-known case is HSBC laundering drug money. Do you know any "real consequences" for employees that resulted of it?
- theorique 13y ago
  Substantial fines and imprisonment are potential consequences. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5330 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5330 I don't know of specific instances where they were enforced (IANAL, etc). This page [pdf] cites some specific penalties but does not refer to specific cases http://www.anti-moneylaundering.com/pdf/Example_Fines_and_Penalties.pdf http://www.anti-moneylaundering.com/pdf/Example_Fines_and_Pe...
PhantomGremlin 13y ago
This crime is called "structuring", and it carries significant penalties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring

crazy1van 13y ago

Great point. Instead of passing new privacy laws that will limit consumer's choices, let's first get rid of the laws blocking those consumers willing to trade some convenience for some privacy.

gress 13y ago
Yeah - let's further concentrate power in the hands of the wealthy. /s

dripton 13y ago

The FinCEN threshold is $10000. The article mentioned buying enough Amazon gift cards to buy a stroller. The most expensive stroller I could find on Amazon in a minute was less than $600. So I don't think we can blame the government in this particular case. Probably just a lazy clerk who didn't feel like selling that many gift cards.

adsfasdf23f23f 13y ago
The author didn't indicate that they weren't able to buy the gift cards, just that the sign existed.
jnbiche 13y ago
First, the $10,000 doesn't apply to "closed-loop" gift cards, like Visa or MasterCard gift cards, which is likely what the OP may have been looking to buy (although it's possible she was looking for Amazon gift cards). In the case of closed-loop cards, the limit is $2000 a day, not $10,000. Second, that's a 10,000 limit per day, not per purchase. Third, as someone else indicated, no clerk said anything to the OP. She just noticed the sign saying that large gift card purchases would be reported to the authorities, which would make me uneasy as well (how much is "large"? to what authorities?).

_delirium 13y ago

> e.g., cash discounts at gas stations This one, oddly enough, is only possible because of the government: in states where it's possible for gas stations to give cash discounts, this is only because state law overrides merchant agreements that otherwise prohibit it. Otherwise, credit-card merchant agreements (i.e. corporate policy, not government policy) generally prohibit differential gas/card pricing. As a merchant you could choose not to do business with Visa at all, but if you do business with Visa, you aren't allow to give cash discounts by the contract terms.

dubfan 13y ago
As of January 27, 2013, Visa and Mastercard allow credit card surcharges. Prior to this I believe merchant agreements did allow for cash payment discounts, just not "surcharges", even though they are practically the same thing. http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/support/surcharge-rules.html http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/support/surcharge-rules.h... http://usa.visa.com/personal/get-help/checkout-fees.jsp http://usa.visa.com/personal/get-help/checkout-fees.jsp
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mpyne 13y ago
  I thought that even that concession was due to a court ruling or other regulatory finding, wasn't it?
- PeterisP 13y ago
  ... only in USA, and only because forced by laws/litigation.
- wpietri 13y ago
  It was a long time ago that I worked a register, but at one point merchant agreements definitely disallowed cash discounts. I knew because on a slow day I actually read the fine print. The boss, correctly, didn't care that their discount for cash was forbidden, but I was young enough to be a little scandalized.

mrxd 13y ago

> both government and large corporations are at fault here Small companies can be equally guilty of misusing data. The best example is credit reporting data, which is often used to screen out job applicants and creates a downward spiral where falling behind on your bills due to a job loss harms your credit which prevents you from finding another job. This has nothing to do with big multinationals. We've gotten so used to the advice about "building credit" that we've forgotten that it's really corporate surveillance. But at least its regulated, unlike Facebook.

pron 13y ago

> What people see as "corporate oppression" is quite often government oppression. I don't know what "quite often" means, but most of the times it isn't. The government is looking for criminals. Corporations collect data to increase profits. Some of the data collection is done to catch criminals, but most (actually, virtually all) of it is done in the name of profit.