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> In reaction to the sanctions, Rogozin tweeted: “After analyzing the sanctions against our space industry, I suggest the U.S. delivers its astronauts to the IS

by eps 13y ago

> In reaction to the sanctions, Rogozin tweeted: “After analyzing the sanctions against our space industry, I suggest the U.S. delivers its astronauts to the ISS with a trampoline.” In Russian there's an expression - to scare a hedgehog with a naked ass - which is exactly the case here, except it's really a shame that it's the space exploration that ends up suffering because of some bullshit political games.

noisy_boy 13y ago
Space exploration always had political motivation driving it or inhibiting it. The great progress done during last 40-50 years wouldn't have as much without cold war and its associated factors. In this case, even if you exclude the Russian factor, the point that ULA was awarded such a huge contract without any competition, most probably didn't happen without political (and/or financial) influence.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- nraynaud 13y ago
  The history behind the engines we are talking about is just crazy. Basically they were incredibly superior to the american ones but politicians lost interest in them (because the race to the moon was lost), and they scrapped the program and asked the engines to be destroyed. They were hidden in the middle of nowhere in Siberia. After the cold war, some Russians in the know wanted to sell them to US companies, the specs were so incredible (particularly the inner pressure) that the prospective buyers thought there was a translation problem or that it was false. They had created a new alloy, they had used an incredibly dangerous technology in them etc. I don't know very well history, but I think this complexity and technological ambition might be a factor in the USSR losing of the race to the moon. edit: nice story, but it's the wrong engine, see below.
  - chippy1337 13y ago
    >[Citation Needed]
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - rst 13y ago
    Different Russian engines. The engines that ULA is banned from buying are RD-180s; they are being newly built to, effectively, American specifications, though most components are derived from the RD-170 which was originally built for Energiya. You're describing this history of the NK-33 engines, which were originally built for the Soviet lunar program, and then (as you say) hidden in a warehouse after that program was terminated. Some of those were later bought by Aerojet, which then sold them to Orbital for use in their ISS cargo delivery program; neither company is party to the suit, and the injunction doesn't cover them. (Nor could it; Aerojet's stock of NK-33s was bought and paid for quite some time ago now.)
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      Oops, sorry
ceejayoz 13y ago
Long-term I'd say this may well strengthen space exploration.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  I think that leaves only China (maybe India ? I don't remember where they are space-wise) with a capacity to send people into space. I don't think Ariane can be fitted for people.
  - arjie 13y ago
    India has not had a successful manned launch yet. I believe China has.
    - noir_lord 13y ago
      They've had about half a dozen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_astronauts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_astronauts
  - arethuza 13y ago
    Ariane 5 was originally supposed to be "man rated" to launch the Hermes mini-shuttle - but that project was cancelled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_%28spacecraft%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_%28spacecraft%29
  - rst 13y ago
    And Russia, of course; American astronauts have been going up on Soyuz since the end of the Shuttle program. If you're suggesting that the US could go to China for replacement transportation services: not likely. NASA is currently barred by Congress from any cooperation with the Chinese at all on space exploration. At least one of the US commercial crew competitors are likely to have working hardware long before that attitude changes.
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      yes, that what the "leave" meant :)
JackFr 13y ago
This is not space exploration, its a jobs program for missile scientists -- you know keep them off the streets, keep them from joining gangs, kind of like Boys Clubs or something. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2013/09/14/the-skies-the-limits/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2013/09/14/the-ski... "The collapse of the Soviet Union created the final incentive to go forward. U.S. officials worried that Russian rocket scientists would go to work for rogue nations, spreading missile technology. In 1993, the United States and its allies brought the Russians into the fold for what would now be called the international space station. The international agreements ensured that the funds would keep flowing to the project despite changes in administrations and turnover in Congress." In retrospect seems like as good an idea as arming the mujahideen in the 80's or putting Lenin on the train from Zurich.
- rst 13y ago
  This is mixing up multiple things: the injunction concerns engines for launches of American defense satellites (GPS, spy sats, communications satellites), etc., which don't go to the space station and don't have much to do with it. (ISS is a NASA program, not military.)
  - chaostheory 13y ago
    > is a NASA program, not military Nowadays with all the budget cuts NASA has been facing, in terms of projects the lines are blurring between the two organizations
- huhtenberg 13y ago
  And that's of course the US version of the story. Very cute, but I can tell you from lots of anecdotal evidence that all that ISS work was a drop in the ocean as far as Soviet space program was concerned. Rocket scientists didn't go to work for rogue nations. You have to understand that Soviet space industry was (and still is) veiled in secrecy. Think of it as SkunkWorks but on a massive scale and with 100x of security officers. You couldn't just hand in your resignation and go work for Iran. It just didn't work this way (it still doesn't by the way). For example, people with a security clearance were required to keep their travel passports with HR and they were not generally allowed to leave the country unsupervised. That's if they could get passports issued to begin with. Perestroika or not, all this security scaffolding was still in place and you bet it was functioning. The state was still guarding its secrets and know-hows. Granted, it neglected people behind them, but it wasn't going to let others access its technology.
listic 13y ago
I'm not quite following: exactly which sanctions prompted Rogozin's snide response?
- coldcode 13y ago
  He's one of the Russians targeted by US and EU for the activities of Russia in the Ukraine. Basically you can't do business with him or send him money.
  - listic 13y ago
    > targeted by US and EU for the activities of Russia in the Ukraine Ah, I didn't know exactly what those sanctions were. So, does it mean that, as a government official, he's threatening sanctions for a country, because of sanctions that were applied to him personally?
nkoren 13y ago
Elon's response to that tweet was more than a little bit epic: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461279062837968897 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461279062837968897 followed by: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461283368693669888 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461283368693669888 Not sure what Rogozin thought about them apples, but this sure isn't boring!
- danielweber 13y ago
  It takes a lot of discipline to keep something like that under wraps until the exact right time to bring it out.
  - colechristensen 13y ago
    Of course, we all knew it was coming. Human spaceflight inside Dragon has always being a goal. The unmanned resupply missions are steeping stones to certifying the rocket and capsule for human flight (though unmanned resupply missions and other launches will continue of course).
- monochr 13y ago
  "Not sure what Rogozin thought about them apples, but this sure isn't boring!" Probably nothing. The Soyuz rockets they use are so old they are literally still named after the Soviet Union. This might seem like a bad thing but in rocketry old means reliable and new means "Your payload will probably explode in one of the first 5 missions. Hope it wasn't important!" In short, it won't be sometime before 2018 before the Dragon Mk 2 rockets become safe enough for Astronauts to use regularly to get to the space station.
  - Gravityloss 13y ago
    They can fly Falcon 9 with cargo Dragons as well as unmanned Dragon 2 capsules many times before 2018. Demonstrated safety is hard to argue with. There have been relatively recent failures with Soyuz launchers as well (though none with Soyuz FG). Russians have also been developing new things, both as upgrades to the Soyuz launcher and Soyuz spacecraft but also new developments. (Soyuz-2-1v and PTK)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
SnakeDoc 13y ago
I could not agree more. Our President decides to pick a political bone so our space industry suffers. (Oh ya, it's the same President that decimated the NASA budget! -- In the name of science!)

by eps 13y ago

noisy_boy 13y ago

Space exploration always had political motivation driving it or inhibiting it. The great progress done during last 40-50 years wouldn't have as much without cold war and its associated factors. In this case, even if you exclude the Russian factor, the point that ULA was awarded such a huge contract without any competition, most probably didn't happen without political (and/or financial) influence.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
nraynaud 13y ago
The history behind the engines we are talking about is just crazy. Basically they were incredibly superior to the american ones but politicians lost interest in them (because the race to the moon was lost), and they scrapped the program and asked the engines to be destroyed. They were hidden in the middle of nowhere in Siberia. After the cold war, some Russians in the know wanted to sell them to US companies, the specs were so incredible (particularly the inner pressure) that the prospective buyers thought there was a translation problem or that it was false. They had created a new alloy, they had used an incredibly dangerous technology in them etc. I don't know very well history, but I think this complexity and technological ambition might be a factor in the USSR losing of the race to the moon. edit: nice story, but it's the wrong engine, see below.
- chippy1337 13y ago
  >[Citation Needed]
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- rst 13y ago
  Different Russian engines. The engines that ULA is banned from buying are RD-180s; they are being newly built to, effectively, American specifications, though most components are derived from the RD-170 which was originally built for Energiya. You're describing this history of the NK-33 engines, which were originally built for the Soviet lunar program, and then (as you say) hidden in a warehouse after that program was terminated. Some of those were later bought by Aerojet, which then sold them to Orbital for use in their ISS cargo delivery program; neither company is party to the suit, and the injunction doesn't cover them. (Nor could it; Aerojet's stock of NK-33s was bought and paid for quite some time ago now.)
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    Oops, sorry

ceejayoz 13y ago

Long-term I'd say this may well strengthen space exploration.

nraynaud 13y ago
I think that leaves only China (maybe India ? I don't remember where they are space-wise) with a capacity to send people into space. I don't think Ariane can be fitted for people.
- arjie 13y ago
  India has not had a successful manned launch yet. I believe China has.
  - noir_lord 13y ago
    They've had about half a dozen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_astronauts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_astronauts
- arethuza 13y ago
  Ariane 5 was originally supposed to be "man rated" to launch the Hermes mini-shuttle - but that project was cancelled. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_%28spacecraft%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_%28spacecraft%29
- rst 13y ago
  And Russia, of course; American astronauts have been going up on Soyuz since the end of the Shuttle program. If you're suggesting that the US could go to China for replacement transportation services: not likely. NASA is currently barred by Congress from any cooperation with the Chinese at all on space exploration. At least one of the US commercial crew competitors are likely to have working hardware long before that attitude changes.
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    yes, that what the "leave" meant :)

JackFr 13y ago

This is not space exploration, its a jobs program for missile scientists -- you know keep them off the streets, keep them from joining gangs, kind of like Boys Clubs or something. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2013/09/14/the-skies-the-limits/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2013/09/14/the-ski... "The collapse of the Soviet Union created the final incentive to go forward. U.S. officials worried that Russian rocket scientists would go to work for rogue nations, spreading missile technology. In 1993, the United States and its allies brought the Russians into the fold for what would now be called the international space station. The international agreements ensured that the funds would keep flowing to the project despite changes in administrations and turnover in Congress." In retrospect seems like as good an idea as arming the mujahideen in the 80's or putting Lenin on the train from Zurich.

rst 13y ago
This is mixing up multiple things: the injunction concerns engines for launches of American defense satellites (GPS, spy sats, communications satellites), etc., which don't go to the space station and don't have much to do with it. (ISS is a NASA program, not military.)
- chaostheory 13y ago
  > is a NASA program, not military Nowadays with all the budget cuts NASA has been facing, in terms of projects the lines are blurring between the two organizations
huhtenberg 13y ago
And that's of course the US version of the story. Very cute, but I can tell you from lots of anecdotal evidence that all that ISS work was a drop in the ocean as far as Soviet space program was concerned. Rocket scientists didn't go to work for rogue nations. You have to understand that Soviet space industry was (and still is) veiled in secrecy. Think of it as SkunkWorks but on a massive scale and with 100x of security officers. You couldn't just hand in your resignation and go work for Iran. It just didn't work this way (it still doesn't by the way). For example, people with a security clearance were required to keep their travel passports with HR and they were not generally allowed to leave the country unsupervised. That's if they could get passports issued to begin with. Perestroika or not, all this security scaffolding was still in place and you bet it was functioning. The state was still guarding its secrets and know-hows. Granted, it neglected people behind them, but it wasn't going to let others access its technology.

listic 13y ago

I'm not quite following: exactly which sanctions prompted Rogozin's snide response?

coldcode 13y ago
He's one of the Russians targeted by US and EU for the activities of Russia in the Ukraine. Basically you can't do business with him or send him money.
- listic 13y ago
  > targeted by US and EU for the activities of Russia in the Ukraine Ah, I didn't know exactly what those sanctions were. So, does it mean that, as a government official, he's threatening sanctions for a country, because of sanctions that were applied to him personally?

nkoren 13y ago

Elon's response to that tweet was more than a little bit epic: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461279062837968897 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461279062837968897 followed by: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461283368693669888 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461283368693669888 Not sure what Rogozin thought about them apples, but this sure isn't boring!

danielweber 13y ago
It takes a lot of discipline to keep something like that under wraps until the exact right time to bring it out.
- colechristensen 13y ago
  Of course, we all knew it was coming. Human spaceflight inside Dragon has always being a goal. The unmanned resupply missions are steeping stones to certifying the rocket and capsule for human flight (though unmanned resupply missions and other launches will continue of course).
monochr 13y ago
"Not sure what Rogozin thought about them apples, but this sure isn't boring!" Probably nothing. The Soyuz rockets they use are so old they are literally still named after the Soviet Union. This might seem like a bad thing but in rocketry old means reliable and new means "Your payload will probably explode in one of the first 5 missions. Hope it wasn't important!" In short, it won't be sometime before 2018 before the Dragon Mk 2 rockets become safe enough for Astronauts to use regularly to get to the space station.
- Gravityloss 13y ago
  They can fly Falcon 9 with cargo Dragons as well as unmanned Dragon 2 capsules many times before 2018. Demonstrated safety is hard to argue with. There have been relatively recent failures with Soyuz launchers as well (though none with Soyuz FG). Russians have also been developing new things, both as upgrades to the Soyuz launcher and Soyuz spacecraft but also new developments. (Soyuz-2-1v and PTK)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

SnakeDoc 13y ago

I could not agree more. Our President decides to pick a political bone so our space industry suffers. (Oh ya, it's the same President that decimated the NASA budget! -- In the name of science!)