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We surely have invented amazing things -- and we are intelligent -- and yet our brains aren't that far removed from our ape ancestors. These brains of ours rea

by jal278 12y ago

We surely have invented amazing things -- and we are intelligent -- and yet our brains aren't that far removed from our ape ancestors. These brains of ours really are not well-suited for considering really-long-term abstract uncertain problems that require altruism to solve (e.g. the environment as the tragedy of the commons, or solid agreements between nations to dismantle nuclear arms). The thing is, it is hard to be objective about our limitations as a species: being that we are a member of our species we are each a bit biased. Overcoming that bias, to see humanity in its current state as basically a selfish tribalistic society, is challenging. Note that I mean selfish in the larger sense -- that generally we devalue human lives with increasing distance from our own birthplace, country, class, time, etc.

ars 12y ago
See, when you say "shiny toy" you imply someone gave you the toy - you use it, but can't make it and don't know how it works. But we invented all we have, so we can rightfully be proud of it. (I am aware you didn't invent that saying (I don't know who did), but you used it without thinking about how stupid of a saying it actually is.) > and yet our brains aren't that far removed from our ape ancestors. OK, that's just so ridiculous as to verge on absurd. Our brains are so far removed from an ape that you wouldn't know we were related if all you could observe were actions (rather than form and shape). > are not well-suited for considering really-long-term abstract uncertain problems that require altruism to solve (e.g. the environment as the tragedy of the commons Any yet somehow we have solved that over and over. And humans are the most altruistic of all the species - witness how we rush to help when there is a disaster, or how much charity we give - or that we invented of concept of charity in the first place! > or solid agreements between nations to dismantle nuclear arms). We haven't done that because we don't want to do that, not because we can't. And we don't want to for very good, thought out reasons, not because of some brain lack. You might disagree on the reasons themself, but you can't claim there were no reasons. > Overcoming that bias, to see humanity in its current state as basically a selfish tribalistic society, is challenging. And presumably you have done so? And you have one of these flawed brains? You seem to have a contradiction here. Not that I agree with your analysis anyway. You are trying to use tribalistic as a negative but it doesn't have that meaning. And we are not selfish, we are competitive. Selfish would imply hurting others for no gain of your own and while some individuals do that, as a whole we don't. > that generally we devalue human lives with increasing distance from our own birthplace, country, class, time, etc. We don't devalue them because they are far, but rather we don't believe we have the ability to do anything about their lives, so we ignore them. The closer someone is to you the more likely you are to help - is that your point? But people don't help more because they are more similar - people help more because they have more ability to do so.
- jal278 12y ago
  The way I would interpret the phrase 'apes with shiny toys' (although it was not me who used that phrase in this thread) -- is that we are slightly-evolved apes who have become infatuated with our technology. Thoreau said: "Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end." It's just that technology is far from a panacea, and it creates as many problems as it solves. Worse, the problems it creates can be of greater magnitude than its solutions. For example, arguably technology on its whole became a net loss once we invented nuclear weapons -- until that point, we never were a push-button away from extinction. The tragedy of the commons is far from solved; one example is that the environment is a commons that industrialized nations abuse (and whether it will have a devastating effect on our future is yet to be decided). It is great that we have made moral progress as a species, and that we do have charity; yet how far has our morality progressed when we have food enough to feed the world yet starvation continues? No, I'm not claiming that I've entirely overcome the bias of my brain, only that I'm aware that human brains were evolved to suit cave-man conditions, not the modern world that we've invented around us; cultural and technological evolution have outpaced natural evolution in our lineage. Finally, I entirely disagree with your assertion that we devalue lives in other countries because we don't have the ability to affect their lives; of course we can affect the lives of people in other countries -- through charity as you yourself point out, and in the way that our politics affect other countries. For example, to most Americans, American civilian lives are worth much more than civilians in say Iraq or Afghanistan; not because Americans cannot affect Iraqi or Afghani lives -- we have and continue to do so (e.g. the civilian casualities in Afghanistan dwarf the losses of Americans in 9/11)[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_...
  - ars 12y ago
    I apologize for saying you were the one who said that about the shiny toys. But wow do we come from different viewpoints. Are you sure we both have the same type of brain? :) > slightly-evolved apes who have become infatuated with our technology You still think we are more or less similar to apes? I'm having a hard time responding to this because I just can't understand how you think that way. The difference between humans and apes is not just a matter of degree, it's a matter of kind. Apes have more in common with mice than they do with humans, despite how different they look to mice, and how similar to humans. We aren't infatuated with technology - the use we have of technology is put to solving the same problems we've always had. How to connect with people, and how to live. > For example, arguably technology on its whole became a net loss once we invented nuclear weapons -- until that point, we never were a push-button away from extinction. We still aren't. Or are you under the mistaken impression that nuclear bombs could cause human extinction? All the bombs ever created couldn't do that, even if carefully detonated (they could cause devastation, but not not extinction). We have a greater capacity to cause disasters, but an even greater capacity to solve them, as a whole a net win. And did you loose sight of the fact that we made these bombs - and only used them twice? That speaks volumes about humanity. I bet you would have never predicted that if you were asked a few decades ago if we would use them. > evolved to suit cave-man conditions, not the modern world that we've invented around us; cultural and technological evolution have outpaced natural evolution in our lineage The modern world was not thrust upon us by an outside force, we created it because it suits us. We don't need to "evolve" to match it - we created it exactly the way we want. > For example, to most Americans, American civilian lives are worth much more than civilians in say Iraq or Afghanistan; not because Americans cannot affect Iraqi or Afghani lives -- we have and continue to do so You have not made your point. Our president can affect Iraqi lives, but any individual person on the street can do nothing about it. We read about sectarian violence between two religious sects (Suni, Shi'ite) that to non-Muslims appear identical and just can't understand why they even fight, much less do anything about it.

by jal278 12y ago

ars 12y ago

See, when you say "shiny toy" you imply someone gave you the toy - you use it, but can't make it and don't know how it works. But we invented all we have, so we can rightfully be proud of it. (I am aware you didn't invent that saying (I don't know who did), but you used it without thinking about how stupid of a saying it actually is.) > and yet our brains aren't that far removed from our ape ancestors. OK, that's just so ridiculous as to verge on absurd. Our brains are so far removed from an ape that you wouldn't know we were related if all you could observe were actions (rather than form and shape). > are not well-suited for considering really-long-term abstract uncertain problems that require altruism to solve (e.g. the environment as the tragedy of the commons Any yet somehow we have solved that over and over. And humans are the most altruistic of all the species - witness how we rush to help when there is a disaster, or how much charity we give - or that we invented of concept of charity in the first place! > or solid agreements between nations to dismantle nuclear arms). We haven't done that because we don't want to do that, not because we can't. And we don't want to for very good, thought out reasons, not because of some brain lack. You might disagree on the reasons themself, but you can't claim there were no reasons. > Overcoming that bias, to see humanity in its current state as basically a selfish tribalistic society, is challenging. And presumably you have done so? And you have one of these flawed brains? You seem to have a contradiction here. Not that I agree with your analysis anyway. You are trying to use tribalistic as a negative but it doesn't have that meaning. And we are not selfish, we are competitive. Selfish would imply hurting others for no gain of your own and while some individuals do that, as a whole we don't. > that generally we devalue human lives with increasing distance from our own birthplace, country, class, time, etc. We don't devalue them because they are far, but rather we don't believe we have the ability to do anything about their lives, so we ignore them. The closer someone is to you the more likely you are to help - is that your point? But people don't help more because they are more similar - people help more because they have more ability to do so.

jal278 12y ago
The way I would interpret the phrase 'apes with shiny toys' (although it was not me who used that phrase in this thread) -- is that we are slightly-evolved apes who have become infatuated with our technology. Thoreau said: "Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end." It's just that technology is far from a panacea, and it creates as many problems as it solves. Worse, the problems it creates can be of greater magnitude than its solutions. For example, arguably technology on its whole became a net loss once we invented nuclear weapons -- until that point, we never were a push-button away from extinction. The tragedy of the commons is far from solved; one example is that the environment is a commons that industrialized nations abuse (and whether it will have a devastating effect on our future is yet to be decided). It is great that we have made moral progress as a species, and that we do have charity; yet how far has our morality progressed when we have food enough to feed the world yet starvation continues? No, I'm not claiming that I've entirely overcome the bias of my brain, only that I'm aware that human brains were evolved to suit cave-man conditions, not the modern world that we've invented around us; cultural and technological evolution have outpaced natural evolution in our lineage. Finally, I entirely disagree with your assertion that we devalue lives in other countries because we don't have the ability to affect their lives; of course we can affect the lives of people in other countries -- through charity as you yourself point out, and in the way that our politics affect other countries. For example, to most Americans, American civilian lives are worth much more than civilians in say Iraq or Afghanistan; not because Americans cannot affect Iraqi or Afghani lives -- we have and continue to do so (e.g. the civilian casualities in Afghanistan dwarf the losses of Americans in 9/11)[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_...
- ars 12y ago
  I apologize for saying you were the one who said that about the shiny toys. But wow do we come from different viewpoints. Are you sure we both have the same type of brain? :) > slightly-evolved apes who have become infatuated with our technology You still think we are more or less similar to apes? I'm having a hard time responding to this because I just can't understand how you think that way. The difference between humans and apes is not just a matter of degree, it's a matter of kind. Apes have more in common with mice than they do with humans, despite how different they look to mice, and how similar to humans. We aren't infatuated with technology - the use we have of technology is put to solving the same problems we've always had. How to connect with people, and how to live. > For example, arguably technology on its whole became a net loss once we invented nuclear weapons -- until that point, we never were a push-button away from extinction. We still aren't. Or are you under the mistaken impression that nuclear bombs could cause human extinction? All the bombs ever created couldn't do that, even if carefully detonated (they could cause devastation, but not not extinction). We have a greater capacity to cause disasters, but an even greater capacity to solve them, as a whole a net win. And did you loose sight of the fact that we made these bombs - and only used them twice? That speaks volumes about humanity. I bet you would have never predicted that if you were asked a few decades ago if we would use them. > evolved to suit cave-man conditions, not the modern world that we've invented around us; cultural and technological evolution have outpaced natural evolution in our lineage The modern world was not thrust upon us by an outside force, we created it because it suits us. We don't need to "evolve" to match it - we created it exactly the way we want. > For example, to most Americans, American civilian lives are worth much more than civilians in say Iraq or Afghanistan; not because Americans cannot affect Iraqi or Afghani lives -- we have and continue to do so You have not made your point. Our president can affect Iraqi lives, but any individual person on the street can do nothing about it. We read about sectarian violence between two religious sects (Suni, Shi'ite) that to non-Muslims appear identical and just can't understand why they even fight, much less do anything about it.