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In his book "Eating Animals" Jonathan Safran Foer dedicates a lot of time to this. Remember, he is not a vegan. This shouldn't be important but there are few gr

by chez17 12y ago

In his book "Eating Animals" Jonathan Safran Foer dedicates a lot of time to this. Remember, he is not a vegan. This shouldn't be important but there are few groups that get more irrational hate than vegans. He cites multiple studies and if you are really concerned it's a quick read. One study showed how effectiveness of a specific antibiotic was at ~99% and then only 10 years after it being introduced into livestock feed the effectiveness shot down to 80%. So we went from about a 1 in 100 chance of it not working to around 1 in 5. That is a massive and terrifying difference. I urge you to read more. Clearly this is an issue I care about. I firmly believe this is the most likely cause of my unnecessary death. Far more than war or terrorism. Protect yourself, your loved ones, your children, your grand children. Stop eating meat that is fed antibiotics.

araes 12y ago
"few groups that get more irrational hate than vegans" This, like most stereotypes, is built around a core of experience, and then expounded. With a lot of vegans, its often not that they're wrong about what they say, its how they convey it. This came up today in another HN discussion on smoking as well. Its ok for them to not like things, just don't be a jerk about it. On topic, while I agree that we may very well all die, this can also be looked at in a different perspective. When the antibiotic in question was first introduced, it had effectively a 5/5 chance of working. After ten years, it then had a 4/5 chance of working. Like most power laws, in maybe 10-20 years, it will have a 3/5 chance of working, ect... with a decay rate that slows with time. Like all evolution, antibiotic resistance is driven primarily by the rate of survival and reproduction in the population. If resistance against AntibioticA is a strong predictor of survival (like when its newly introduced, and highly effective), then lots of bacteria will develop the immunity. As it gets used less, due to limited effectiveness, then it will become less of a predictor, and less bacteria will multiply with that as a trait. Its not like evolution is "free" either. Often times, if an organism becomes heavily specialized in fending off one threat, then they leave themselves open to invasive species or perpendicular threats. I firmly believe that we have intelligence (I really do) and that while natural evolution is powerful, we already have many of the tools necessary to understand, and adapt along with it. We just need to be able to understand why they're changing, how they're changing, and how we can exploit that process for our gain.
- theorique 12y ago
  Its ok for them to not like things, just don't be a jerk about it. When I was a vegan, I would typically mention that fact, and then also add, "but I don't mind if you eat meat and I won't criticize you for it". Lots of people didn't believe me at first, having been on the business end of a lot of criticism from "well meaning" vegans and vegetarians.
- overgryphon 12y ago
  I went vegan for a few months and abandoned it because everyone else was unable to have a conversation with me about anything other than meat. Everyone felt an unprovoked need to justify their eating habits to me. Social groups were uncomfortable picking a restaurant without asking if I was okay with it even though I would much prefer to just not eat and hang out with people. Without any comment from me, my eating habits became a constant source of discussion and concern. There just isn't any way to be politely vegan. Everyone else automatically assumes that you care why they aren't.
  - eps 12y ago
    Not eating meat is easy to understand. What throws a lot of people off is vegans, unlike vegeterians, not eating eggs and cheese. That's really a doozy. It just doesn't make sense (and not that it implies that vegans care and non-vegans don't).
    - DennisP 12y ago
      Some people are vegans for health reasons, based on books like The China Study. Others just think we don't treat our egg layers and dairy cows very well. (I'm not a vegan, and don't want to get into a debate over whether they're correct. I'm just saying they have their reasons.)
    - tedks 12y ago
      Cheese is made from milk. Milk is produced by mammals that have recently given birth. Cows are not an exception. Every dairy product you have consumed is built from milk stolen from a calf. That calf is immediately separated from its mother, and usually shipped straight into a veal crate. If you consume dairy you support this. The mother is milked for as long as she can be, but eventually she'll need to be impregnated again. This is a traumatic experience, but it's not like animal agriculture industry tries to make it better. The devices they use are called "rape racks" in the industry. If your vision of dairy production is a straw-hatted farmer sitting on a three-legged stool milking Ol Betsy you're delusional. But you're also pretty common. Most people have the same sort of view of animal agriculture that non-technical people have about the Cloud.

by chez17 12y ago

araes 12y ago

"few groups that get more irrational hate than vegans" This, like most stereotypes, is built around a core of experience, and then expounded. With a lot of vegans, its often not that they're wrong about what they say, its how they convey it. This came up today in another HN discussion on smoking as well. Its ok for them to not like things, just don't be a jerk about it. On topic, while I agree that we may very well all die, this can also be looked at in a different perspective. When the antibiotic in question was first introduced, it had effectively a 5/5 chance of working. After ten years, it then had a 4/5 chance of working. Like most power laws, in maybe 10-20 years, it will have a 3/5 chance of working, ect... with a decay rate that slows with time. Like all evolution, antibiotic resistance is driven primarily by the rate of survival and reproduction in the population. If resistance against AntibioticA is a strong predictor of survival (like when its newly introduced, and highly effective), then lots of bacteria will develop the immunity. As it gets used less, due to limited effectiveness, then it will become less of a predictor, and less bacteria will multiply with that as a trait. Its not like evolution is "free" either. Often times, if an organism becomes heavily specialized in fending off one threat, then they leave themselves open to invasive species or perpendicular threats. I firmly believe that we have intelligence (I really do) and that while natural evolution is powerful, we already have many of the tools necessary to understand, and adapt along with it. We just need to be able to understand why they're changing, how they're changing, and how we can exploit that process for our gain.

theorique 12y ago
Its ok for them to not like things, just don't be a jerk about it. When I was a vegan, I would typically mention that fact, and then also add, "but I don't mind if you eat meat and I won't criticize you for it". Lots of people didn't believe me at first, having been on the business end of a lot of criticism from "well meaning" vegans and vegetarians.
overgryphon 12y ago
I went vegan for a few months and abandoned it because everyone else was unable to have a conversation with me about anything other than meat. Everyone felt an unprovoked need to justify their eating habits to me. Social groups were uncomfortable picking a restaurant without asking if I was okay with it even though I would much prefer to just not eat and hang out with people. Without any comment from me, my eating habits became a constant source of discussion and concern. There just isn't any way to be politely vegan. Everyone else automatically assumes that you care why they aren't.
- eps 12y ago
  Not eating meat is easy to understand. What throws a lot of people off is vegans, unlike vegeterians, not eating eggs and cheese. That's really a doozy. It just doesn't make sense (and not that it implies that vegans care and non-vegans don't).
  - DennisP 12y ago
    Some people are vegans for health reasons, based on books like The China Study. Others just think we don't treat our egg layers and dairy cows very well. (I'm not a vegan, and don't want to get into a debate over whether they're correct. I'm just saying they have their reasons.)
  - tedks 12y ago
    Cheese is made from milk. Milk is produced by mammals that have recently given birth. Cows are not an exception. Every dairy product you have consumed is built from milk stolen from a calf. That calf is immediately separated from its mother, and usually shipped straight into a veal crate. If you consume dairy you support this. The mother is milked for as long as she can be, but eventually she'll need to be impregnated again. This is a traumatic experience, but it's not like animal agriculture industry tries to make it better. The devices they use are called "rape racks" in the industry. If your vision of dairy production is a straw-hatted farmer sitting on a three-legged stool milking Ol Betsy you're delusional. But you're also pretty common. Most people have the same sort of view of animal agriculture that non-technical people have about the Cloud.