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As I said, it is my bad not to express more with less. English is my fifth language I picked only few years ago. Furthermore, I'm walking on eggs here, as some

As I said, it is my bad not to express more with less. English is my fifth language I picked only few years ago. Furthermore, I'm walking on eggs here, as some people are way too reactive, so I try to make sure to light the matter from different angles, so the shape of my thoughts would appear clearer. My point, and this is why I went to Ask HN (to ask, to voice my thoughts and get feedback and debate, not to put them as hard truths). My points were: - If sexism exists, it seems it does over all industries. - If you are someone, whether a woman or not, having trouble getting into an industry, it's good practice to question yourself, too. It's not always "them".

tptacek 13y ago
To your first point: (a) The existence of sexism in other industries does not in fact take pressure off this industry for correcting sexism, and, (b) more importantly, you're incorrect; of the "prestige professions" (law, medicine, accounting, engineering), it's only engineering that remains stubbornly imbalanced. To your second point: It's easily possible for you to be correct that people need to take responsibility for their own careers while at the same time recognizing persistent biases against women.
- Jugurtha 13y ago
  http://firstround.com/article/An-Inside-Look-at-Facebooks-Method-for-Hiring-Designers http://firstround.com/article/An-Inside-Look-at-Facebooks-Me... One female speaker, a bunch-load of men in the audience. Maybe if female attended more events, there would be more females working. Maybe if more females did engineering, there would be more females to choose from. How many females in Engineering careers ? I hate talking with smart people who completely dismiss statistics and only stress on one point. Come on, most of you on Hacker News did something tech related, in college, etc. How many girls were there in your Microelectronics class ? OS class ? From all your programmer friends, how many girls are there ? I mean, it can drive a man insane talking to a wall.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    If your response to the logic flaws in your original argument about the technology industry is to apply the same logic to engineering school, my response is to point out that the same logic flaws apply to engineering school.
    - Jugurtha 13y ago
      I'm Algerian, from Algeria (North Africa). I'll start a movement bitching about how there are not enough Algerians in Silicon Valley, and how it is unfair and xenophobic, and how companies must start programs and what-not to include more Algerians. Start paying teachers to teach Algerians to code, but not pay them if they teach other nationalities. And I'll sue because most people working in Silicon Valley are American. Who cares about the fact that there are less Algerians that Americans in the U.S. Or the fact there are less Algerians than Americans in Silicon Valley. Or the fact there are less Algerian Engineers than American Engineers in Silicon Valley. I mean, who cares, right? It's just wrong and everyone is whining. Why not whine, too. It's trendy and hip these days to be a special flower. This is exactly what Tptacek, with all due respect... There's no amount of rhetoric fu that would make the unwillingness to face reality overcome, well, reality. Most women don't pursue tech. Most people in tech are males. 1+1 = Most people working in tech will be men. Anyone would agree on that if it were on another issue, but since it's women it is about, and people don't want to appear sexist if they ever even question the main points, they all jump on the White Knight train, wear their Social Justice SWAT Protective gear, and smash anyone who disagrees.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        Defining the problem away doesn't do much to help your argument either. Meanwhile, rhetorical devices like the term "white knight" and "social justice SWAT" harm your argument further, by making you sound unserious --- you're not just attacking the person making the argument instead of their arguments (the true ad-hom fallacy), but you're attacking a caricature of them. A moment's thought will show you why there would be more women in any given field in the US than Algerians. If you can't understand why, are you sure you want to advertise that fact?

tptacek 13y ago

To your first point: (a) The existence of sexism in other industries does not in fact take pressure off this industry for correcting sexism, and, (b) more importantly, you're incorrect; of the "prestige professions" (law, medicine, accounting, engineering), it's only engineering that remains stubbornly imbalanced. To your second point: It's easily possible for you to be correct that people need to take responsibility for their own careers while at the same time recognizing persistent biases against women.

Jugurtha 13y ago
http://firstround.com/article/An-Inside-Look-at-Facebooks-Method-for-Hiring-Designers http://firstround.com/article/An-Inside-Look-at-Facebooks-Me... One female speaker, a bunch-load of men in the audience. Maybe if female attended more events, there would be more females working. Maybe if more females did engineering, there would be more females to choose from. How many females in Engineering careers ? I hate talking with smart people who completely dismiss statistics and only stress on one point. Come on, most of you on Hacker News did something tech related, in college, etc. How many girls were there in your Microelectronics class ? OS class ? From all your programmer friends, how many girls are there ? I mean, it can drive a man insane talking to a wall.
- tptacek 13y ago
  If your response to the logic flaws in your original argument about the technology industry is to apply the same logic to engineering school, my response is to point out that the same logic flaws apply to engineering school.
  - Jugurtha 13y ago
    I'm Algerian, from Algeria (North Africa). I'll start a movement bitching about how there are not enough Algerians in Silicon Valley, and how it is unfair and xenophobic, and how companies must start programs and what-not to include more Algerians. Start paying teachers to teach Algerians to code, but not pay them if they teach other nationalities. And I'll sue because most people working in Silicon Valley are American. Who cares about the fact that there are less Algerians that Americans in the U.S. Or the fact there are less Algerians than Americans in Silicon Valley. Or the fact there are less Algerian Engineers than American Engineers in Silicon Valley. I mean, who cares, right? It's just wrong and everyone is whining. Why not whine, too. It's trendy and hip these days to be a special flower. This is exactly what Tptacek, with all due respect... There's no amount of rhetoric fu that would make the unwillingness to face reality overcome, well, reality. Most women don't pursue tech. Most people in tech are males. 1+1 = Most people working in tech will be men. Anyone would agree on that if it were on another issue, but since it's women it is about, and people don't want to appear sexist if they ever even question the main points, they all jump on the White Knight train, wear their Social Justice SWAT Protective gear, and smash anyone who disagrees.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Defining the problem away doesn't do much to help your argument either. Meanwhile, rhetorical devices like the term "white knight" and "social justice SWAT" harm your argument further, by making you sound unserious --- you're not just attacking the person making the argument instead of their arguments (the true ad-hom fallacy), but you're attacking a caricature of them. A moment's thought will show you why there would be more women in any given field in the US than Algerians. If you can't understand why, are you sure you want to advertise that fact?