4 ms·

Can't get over the way first sentence sounds: > PHP developers are makers at heart. What is the difference between a PHP developer and any other developer? If

by aram 12y ago

Can't get over the way first sentence sounds: > PHP developers are makers at heart. What is the difference between a PHP developer and any other developer? If they tried to stick this in the middle, I could swallow it but opening sentence is just ridiculous.

_zen 12y ago
Why are you getting your jimmies rustled for no reason? Stop getting offended over nothing. They didn't say "PHP developers are makers at heart. No one else is."
- aram 12y ago
  I'm not getting offended; actually I'm mainly a PHP dev. The sentence just sounds as if you paid $5 someone to write you an intro to a technical matter because you didn't know what to to use. The sentence is general and without point. Because it is coming from a technical company and is aimed towards technical people, yes, I find it ridiculous.
  - _zen 12y ago
    Passionate language like that is used all over the industry, especially from start ups. So why is it a big deal if it's used to describe PHP? If the Ruby on Rails blog made a post saying "Rubyists are makers at heart." would you complain?
    - aram 12y ago
      Ha! Actually that would go on my nerves even more. I don't like that type of sugarcoating in general. There is a big difference between passionate language and fake passionate language. IMHO this is the latter case. Last: Heroku != blog of a random startup Lead sentence != middle of post I won't continue as this leads nowhere.
chc 12y ago
Well, for instance, Haskell programmers are much more likely to be researchers than PHP programmers are.
sequoia 12y ago
My cynical reaction: Heroku is a pillar of the frequently extremely PHP hostile Ruby community trying to extend an olive branch now that they want to do business with the community. Obviously Heroku isn't responsible for all the PHP hate in the Ruby world (or any of it for all I know) but I understand why they feel the need to open with a compliment & appeal to friendship.
- rabc 12y ago
  In the end, it's just business. Heroku is owned by Salesforce.com and they want to make more money. The Ruby community is for Ruby. Period. A company can't dictate their own policies based on ideas of just one community.
thatthatis 12y ago
It is a positive sentiment that even PHP haters can agree to. Seems like a very carefully crafted sentiment to endear themselves to PHP devs without alienating tribalistic Python/Ruby/etc devs. My bias: 80% hate, 18% apathy, and 2% curiosity into what facebook is doing with the language.
- jcroll 12y ago
  Why do you feel the need to "hate" a programming language? Hate racism or hunger or war; but a programming language? I find such vitriol unnecessarily divisive and I don't think it in anyway benefits our industry.
  - thatthatis 12y ago
    I feel no need to hate a language, but I recognize that I have a feeling of hatred towards it. I also recognize that such feelings bias my words and feel that it is helpful to others when known biases are disclosed. In this context, I think disclosing my emotions towards the language tells others that while I dislike PHP the way Heroku phrased their "makers at heart" was a positive sentiment that I could agree with. It seemed relevant. Why do I hate it at 80%? Because it burned me in the past. Because it makes doing things right hard. Because other people make the same mistakes over and over and yet I still have to use it on occasion. It's an emotion built up after years of negative experiences. My emotional experience with PHP went from Interested to Excited to Cautious to Wary to Hateful. For me, PHP was the friend that promised the moon and when he did show up he came with week-old dried out cheese instead of the moon that he promised. Cumulative bad experiences, especially when larger factors (legacy decisions, inertia, switching costs, etc) force you to continue having those bad experiences, leads to negative emotions. Call it extreme dislike if you want, but for me it is a lesser form of hate. Note that this is all personal description. Perhaps it was the timing (04-08) perhaps it was my level of experience, perhaps it was bad luck. I realize that some people have unanimously or mostly positive experiences with PHP and I'm not trying to diminish their experiences.
    - maratd 12y ago
thinkbohemian 12y ago
Hello, I helped edit the blog post and actually proposed this sentence. I love this reaction: > What is the difference between a PHP developer and any other developer? It's exactly the type of response I was hoping for. In early drafts we got a common "big whup" response from some readers. Most posts on PHP these days only do well when they bash the language, very few focus on __why__ they use PHP: which is to create things. Yes, all developers create things, and PHP developers do as well. This sentence serves to validate PHP and their developers. So to answer your question: > What is the difference between a PHP developer and any other developer? Nothing. Even if you still don't buy my explanation. Maybe you can stomach some non-wordsmithed docs: https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/getting-started-with-php https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/getting-started-with-p...
- aram 12y ago
  I still don't buy it. I find that type of sugarcoating generally unnecessary and distracting in negative sense, especially when you start the announcement with it. Either way - thanks for taking the time to explain.
  - thinkbohemian 12y ago
    No worries. I start a lot of writing with a "hook" first sentence and try to end with a memorable sentence. I then diagram the work into bullet points and try to make sure all key takeaways are obvious, note I didn't actually work on the _final_ draft of this doc. I was pleasantly surprised to find they left my first sentence in there. Some hooks are better than others. I'm an engineer before a writer. It sucks that we have to market tech things, but the sad truth is most announcements that have no "hype" get no hype. I do a bunch of open source work, and some projects I promote and they do well, others I don't promote and they don't do as well. Generally at Heroku I try to only put one or two flashy sentences in. The rest should be direct substance delivery, though that's not always the case. Thanks for taking the time to click the link, read, and comment!
coldtea 12y ago
Well, for example, Haskell developers are preachers at heart. Not putting much actual stuff out there, but always preaching about Monads, purity, laziness, Typeclasses, etc. (Joking, but only half)

by aram 12y ago

_zen 12y ago

Why are you getting your jimmies rustled for no reason? Stop getting offended over nothing. They didn't say "PHP developers are makers at heart. No one else is."

aram 12y ago
I'm not getting offended; actually I'm mainly a PHP dev. The sentence just sounds as if you paid $5 someone to write you an intro to a technical matter because you didn't know what to to use. The sentence is general and without point. Because it is coming from a technical company and is aimed towards technical people, yes, I find it ridiculous.
- _zen 12y ago
  Passionate language like that is used all over the industry, especially from start ups. So why is it a big deal if it's used to describe PHP? If the Ruby on Rails blog made a post saying "Rubyists are makers at heart." would you complain?
  - aram 12y ago
    Ha! Actually that would go on my nerves even more. I don't like that type of sugarcoating in general. There is a big difference between passionate language and fake passionate language. IMHO this is the latter case. Last: Heroku != blog of a random startup Lead sentence != middle of post I won't continue as this leads nowhere.

chc 12y ago

Well, for instance, Haskell programmers are much more likely to be researchers than PHP programmers are.

sequoia 12y ago

My cynical reaction: Heroku is a pillar of the frequently extremely PHP hostile Ruby community trying to extend an olive branch now that they want to do business with the community. Obviously Heroku isn't responsible for all the PHP hate in the Ruby world (or any of it for all I know) but I understand why they feel the need to open with a compliment & appeal to friendship.

rabc 12y ago
In the end, it's just business. Heroku is owned by Salesforce.com and they want to make more money. The Ruby community is for Ruby. Period. A company can't dictate their own policies based on ideas of just one community.

thatthatis 12y ago

It is a positive sentiment that even PHP haters can agree to. Seems like a very carefully crafted sentiment to endear themselves to PHP devs without alienating tribalistic Python/Ruby/etc devs. My bias: 80% hate, 18% apathy, and 2% curiosity into what facebook is doing with the language.

jcroll 12y ago
Why do you feel the need to "hate" a programming language? Hate racism or hunger or war; but a programming language? I find such vitriol unnecessarily divisive and I don't think it in anyway benefits our industry.
- thatthatis 12y ago
  I feel no need to hate a language, but I recognize that I have a feeling of hatred towards it. I also recognize that such feelings bias my words and feel that it is helpful to others when known biases are disclosed. In this context, I think disclosing my emotions towards the language tells others that while I dislike PHP the way Heroku phrased their "makers at heart" was a positive sentiment that I could agree with. It seemed relevant. Why do I hate it at 80%? Because it burned me in the past. Because it makes doing things right hard. Because other people make the same mistakes over and over and yet I still have to use it on occasion. It's an emotion built up after years of negative experiences. My emotional experience with PHP went from Interested to Excited to Cautious to Wary to Hateful. For me, PHP was the friend that promised the moon and when he did show up he came with week-old dried out cheese instead of the moon that he promised. Cumulative bad experiences, especially when larger factors (legacy decisions, inertia, switching costs, etc) force you to continue having those bad experiences, leads to negative emotions. Call it extreme dislike if you want, but for me it is a lesser form of hate. Note that this is all personal description. Perhaps it was the timing (04-08) perhaps it was my level of experience, perhaps it was bad luck. I realize that some people have unanimously or mostly positive experiences with PHP and I'm not trying to diminish their experiences.
  - maratd 12y ago

thinkbohemian 12y ago

Hello, I helped edit the blog post and actually proposed this sentence. I love this reaction: > What is the difference between a PHP developer and any other developer? It's exactly the type of response I was hoping for. In early drafts we got a common "big whup" response from some readers. Most posts on PHP these days only do well when they bash the language, very few focus on __why__ they use PHP: which is to create things. Yes, all developers create things, and PHP developers do as well. This sentence serves to validate PHP and their developers. So to answer your question: > What is the difference between a PHP developer and any other developer? Nothing. Even if you still don't buy my explanation. Maybe you can stomach some non-wordsmithed docs: https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/getting-started-with-php https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/getting-started-with-p...

aram 12y ago
I still don't buy it. I find that type of sugarcoating generally unnecessary and distracting in negative sense, especially when you start the announcement with it. Either way - thanks for taking the time to explain.
- thinkbohemian 12y ago
  No worries. I start a lot of writing with a "hook" first sentence and try to end with a memorable sentence. I then diagram the work into bullet points and try to make sure all key takeaways are obvious, note I didn't actually work on the _final_ draft of this doc. I was pleasantly surprised to find they left my first sentence in there. Some hooks are better than others. I'm an engineer before a writer. It sucks that we have to market tech things, but the sad truth is most announcements that have no "hype" get no hype. I do a bunch of open source work, and some projects I promote and they do well, others I don't promote and they don't do as well. Generally at Heroku I try to only put one or two flashy sentences in. The rest should be direct substance delivery, though that's not always the case. Thanks for taking the time to click the link, read, and comment!

coldtea 12y ago

Well, for example, Haskell developers are preachers at heart. Not putting much actual stuff out there, but always preaching about Monads, purity, laziness, Typeclasses, etc. (Joking, but only half)