4 ms·

So, is this me? or is this icon sexist? you decide.

3 points by reuwsaat 12y ago

please keep in mind that this was a support ticket, not a thesis. i think my assumptions are obvious, fair, and valid. how "groups" are depicted in public is internalized, privately. "hmmm, everyone in that commercial looks like me / doesn't look like me. i think i'll buy that product / won't buy that product." it's like the problem with public bathroom signs. and false choices. why not instead use the letters "M" "F" "U". Male, Female, Unisex. There. We can embrace kilts and convenience. (and if that doesn't work, there are other options. i'm sure we can come to some agreement that doesn't require equating gender with "my favorite color is..." or "most people of gender x/y (pun totally intended) wear...") so, is it just me? or is this icon sexist? (even a littel?) you decide.

reuwsaat 12y ago
poster here :) please keep in mind that this was a support ticket, not a thesis. i think my assumptions are obvious, fair, and valid. how "groups" are depicted in public is internalized, privately. "hmmm, everyone in that commercial looks like me / doesn't look like me. i think i'll buy that product / won't buy that product." it's like the problem with public bathroom signs. and false choices. why not instead use the letters "M" "F" "U". Male, Female, Unisex. There. We can embrace kilts and convenience. (and if that doesn't work, there are other options. i'm sure we can come to some agreement that doesn't require equating gender with "my favorite color is..." or "most people of gender x/y (pun totally intended) wear...") so, is it just me? or is this icon sexist? (even a littel?) you decide.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > it's like the problem with public bathroom signs. and false choices. why not instead use the letters "M" "F" "U". Male, Female, Unisex. The symbols, while not independent of knowledge of gender stereotypes, are language independent and widely and immediately recognizable. Words aren't, but at least are unambiguous if you know the language. Letters are the worst option, as they are the least likely to be understood.
sobetroll 12y ago
its you. People get so caught up in things that mean literally nothing. Its simply just a way to show a clear and concise difference between men and women. Its like going into a mcdonalds and being upset that the womans bathroom has a woman with a skirt on it and the mens room just looks like a guy standing there. They could be purple and Brown for all I care. I think you just need to relax and realise, not everything is trying to get you...
- reuwsaat 12y ago
  clearly not everything is trying to get me. and, i wouldn't bother if it was. i'm confident that i can handle myself. you comment speaks exactly to my point though. the icon is supposed to show two different USERS. not a man and a woman. and that you think that the icon is the best way to show the difference between a man and a woman is also to the point. maybe the starkest differences between a male and a female are not color or clothes. but, that IS the way many think. i think there is a problem with perpetuating that.
  - jeremysmyth 12y ago
    maybe the starkest differences between a male and a female are not color or clothes. but, that IS the way many think. OK, I'll bite, seeing as you're going down that route. If I want to represent the differences between a male and a female (for that matter, what are they?) I can't easily put millenia of ingrained and imposed cultural norms into a small desktop icon, nor could I even summarise the last 100 years of inclusive gender thinking (and even reducing that by omitting anything controversial, because, y'know, we don't want to alienate users). On the other hand I could simply represent the differences between a male and a female by creating an icon that shows the differences that nobody can disagree with on any basis: the genitals. Personally, I think the icon shows "people" in a nicely minimal and inclusive way. I'm sure it's obvious to most (even people who might get offended by the blatant use of stereotypes) that it's meant to convey males and females, rather than family (parent and child), couples (two people holding hands), just men or women (as it could be if two gender-neutral people were there), or even something more confusingly abstract (two or more smiley faces). If you can think up an alternative that's neither confusing nor offensive to any minority (as in the linked case), while remaining attractive and minimal enough to work as an icon, I think the industry will rapidly adopt it out of self-preservation as much as anything else.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
a3n 12y ago
I never noticed it was there before this. I can't think of a scenario where I would get to that feature by that route, but i don't know everything about how people use LastPass. The pink and blue, with the bobbed hair for the pink guy, is a little anachronistically old fashioned. Some solutions: - remove the icon, or replace it with the LastPass splat icon. - remove the menu entry (if people would normally get to those features in other ways). - If the icon is for a feature that really is best identified by association with the idea of "people" (I'm not convinced), then change it to a blue or grey single person without identifiable hair or clothes; a stick figure with thick sticks.
__xtrimsky 12y ago
it's you honestly. I'm a guy, the guy icon is blue, I don't care. It could have been pink. Our society sees boys in blue and girls in pink. Is it bad ? no Does it mean I can't wear pink ? no Do I care about this specific design ? no, it adds some nice colors to the app. If it was red and yellow it wouldn't make sense.
petercooper 12y ago
A warm up for a long fight against millions of restroom signs? Flippancy aside, the icon in question doesn't even look that nice in context.. a simple silhouette of two "generic" people would certainly look nicer.
- reuwsaat 12y ago
  it's true. the restroom sign has come up a lot as i've shopped this question around to my friends. i think it's a spot on point. sexism seems primarily to be discussed in the media when extremely heinous things go down. but i think it's equally import to look at the banal, everyday manifestations of it. including bathroom signs. what does going to the bathroom have to do what we wear on our bottom half anyhow. we all drops our pants in order to use the facilities, regardless of gender.
  - tompko 12y ago
    It's an easily recognizable icon that indicates which room to use and doesn't rely on which language you speak. For English speakers M and F might be just as easy, but which would you use of حمام للرجال and حمام للنساء?
    - petercooper 12y ago
      Funny story about this is I was in an Irish-themed bar here in the UK and the toilets didn't have symbols but Irish words. I was in a rush and saw "Mna" and "Fir". Mna sounded like a drunken "man" so I went with it. Once I'd finished my business, however, I noticed there were no urinals and it was the women's toilets. I had to laugh.
Abraln 12y ago
It seems the icon itself relates to the difficult of accurately conveying information through small symbols. Do I think this company should have chose a better icon? Yes, but the core shapes and colors are designed to reduce doubt as much as possible. Search "gender symbol" for the closest "non-sexist" alternative, but even that would cause confusion amongst some. Just as a fork and knife is a standard symbol on maps for a reastraunt, (even ones where you use your hands or chopsticks), the symbols become their meaning, not their appearence (see Egyptian hieroglyphs). One has become a symbol for male, the other for female, and their differences need to be significant enough to distinguish between them. It really depends on the intent of whoever chose the icon. -from mobile, so apologies for any errors
bprager 12y ago
As the French would say: vive la différence. But joking aside, classification can be healthy and helps us to orient ourselves. It is one of the basics of learning. If issues arise on types one has to allow the question, what is the issue and who actually has it. Do we no longer value qualities like female or male, ladies and gentlemen?
Suitov 12y ago
Yes, it's sexist, and it's pretty confusing UI when in other contexts they're using their newer arrow-boxy form fill icon. Nothing about two humans says 'fill forms' to me. I don't think you'll get anywhere with Joe from Support, though, and probably not with largely-male HN.
fallinghawks 12y ago
"Extended,,, pink is for girls. Pink is sissy. Dresses are sissy. Girls are sissy " etc has not that much to do with the actual color pink, but OP's projection of what it implies. Not everyone has this rather lengthy and extended negative association with pink or a generic female shape being dressed in a skirt. So I'd say this has more to do with OP's attitude rather than the icon. Distinctions have to be made somehow, otherwise we'd have two identical icons. As for making them letters, well, the point behind universal signs was for people who are not native English speakers.
olgeni 12y ago
"Everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes." Just be glad that the man is blue. If you just erased him, he would actually be... white. oh noes
reuwsaat 12y ago
i was curious as to what people would assume about my gender. i didn't want to say because my question/post was about an icon. not me. and the icon is about USERS. not gender. but, since it's becoming fairly obvious what many of you have assumed, i'll clarify. i'm a guy. i'm white. i'm straight. i'm upper-middle class. was raised christian (but have since converted to otherwise). grew up in texas. hold two degrees. in fact, i went to asu which was the #1 ranked party school one of the years i attended. i worked in a global investment company in the financial district of new york for 5 years before have the insanely fortunate opportunity to take a year off to study mathematics so i could transition to machine learning. i'm not the "persecuted" type. i'm actually the poster boy for not-persecuted. this is not about me. this. is. not. about. me. this is about assumptions. subtle, banal assumptions. (at this time you're encouraged to dig in deep to the hannah arendt reference.) especially in the digital world. we are digital; online there is NO ANATOMY. out with skeuomorphism. web design has gone flat. so what's the rational behind using skirts (gender) to define a user (agent)? "I'm a guy, the guy icon is blue, I don't care." really? really?? and thank you for speaking on behalf of our entire society. you're a guy, you had the right to vote first. you have, on average, better pay. you are more often elected to public office. you occupy more seats on the supreme court. you control a greater percentage of the worlds wealth. i could go on. and on. and on. regarding "adds some nice colors to the app", and this will be my last reply/comment because I'VE GROWN WEARY OF THE FALSE CHOICES PRESENTED AS "COUNTER ARGUMENTS," if the point of the icon is to add color, then use color. if it's to show different users then maybe use faces as netflix does for the ipad. if you want to use symbols, it doesn't have to be m,f,u and thus assume english; many, many other symbols would suffice. similar to what the other person said, when i go to a my favorite mexican restaurant and they have completely non-english, non-'united states culturally', absurd black and white photos to differentiate, i don't walk into the wrong stall. i don't turn stupid and have to ask my server what's what. and like the other person said, if i did, it'd be funny. whatever. we are not stupid. some of us are just not concerned. it's about assumptions. and since several replies have gone off topic, i'll go global. it's not just gender. it's also about culture. it's also about race. it's also about economic freedom. it's also about religion. it's also about language. it is about DIFFERENCE. the difference the icon is trying to demonstrate is the difference between two USERS. rather than give another, of the cuff, option for demonstrating two different USERS and have the entire conversation rear off course, i'll just say, i think we can do better.
jgeorge 12y ago
It's you. Who's to say the pink icon wearing a dress is female? Who's to say the blue icon in pants is male? Isn't making that assumption sexist in itself? Edit: removed snark
- reuwsaat 12y ago
  who's to say? please see ridiculous amount of references to bathrooms in other comments. next time i'll just submit something on bathrooms. i think it'd do great on hn.
  - jeremysmyth 12y ago
    Bathrooms are the most prevalent form of gender segregation on the planet, and they must have easily-communicated disambiguating symbols to work as such. I think it's perfectly reasonable to consider them a prevailing example when discussing a thread about gender-identifying symbols.
lolwutf 12y ago
Oh for christssake. Am I the only one who's really tired that having a gender is being translated into a crime now? This is just absolutely ridiculous. Yes. It's you.

3 points by reuwsaat 12y ago

reuwsaat 12y ago

poster here :) please keep in mind that this was a support ticket, not a thesis. i think my assumptions are obvious, fair, and valid. how "groups" are depicted in public is internalized, privately. "hmmm, everyone in that commercial looks like me / doesn't look like me. i think i'll buy that product / won't buy that product." it's like the problem with public bathroom signs. and false choices. why not instead use the letters "M" "F" "U". Male, Female, Unisex. There. We can embrace kilts and convenience. (and if that doesn't work, there are other options. i'm sure we can come to some agreement that doesn't require equating gender with "my favorite color is..." or "most people of gender x/y (pun totally intended) wear...") so, is it just me? or is this icon sexist? (even a littel?) you decide.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> it's like the problem with public bathroom signs. and false choices. why not instead use the letters "M" "F" "U". Male, Female, Unisex. The symbols, while not independent of knowledge of gender stereotypes, are language independent and widely and immediately recognizable. Words aren't, but at least are unambiguous if you know the language. Letters are the worst option, as they are the least likely to be understood.

sobetroll 12y ago

its you. People get so caught up in things that mean literally nothing. Its simply just a way to show a clear and concise difference between men and women. Its like going into a mcdonalds and being upset that the womans bathroom has a woman with a skirt on it and the mens room just looks like a guy standing there. They could be purple and Brown for all I care. I think you just need to relax and realise, not everything is trying to get you...

reuwsaat 12y ago
clearly not everything is trying to get me. and, i wouldn't bother if it was. i'm confident that i can handle myself. you comment speaks exactly to my point though. the icon is supposed to show two different USERS. not a man and a woman. and that you think that the icon is the best way to show the difference between a man and a woman is also to the point. maybe the starkest differences between a male and a female are not color or clothes. but, that IS the way many think. i think there is a problem with perpetuating that.
- jeremysmyth 12y ago
  maybe the starkest differences between a male and a female are not color or clothes. but, that IS the way many think. OK, I'll bite, seeing as you're going down that route. If I want to represent the differences between a male and a female (for that matter, what are they?) I can't easily put millenia of ingrained and imposed cultural norms into a small desktop icon, nor could I even summarise the last 100 years of inclusive gender thinking (and even reducing that by omitting anything controversial, because, y'know, we don't want to alienate users). On the other hand I could simply represent the differences between a male and a female by creating an icon that shows the differences that nobody can disagree with on any basis: the genitals. Personally, I think the icon shows "people" in a nicely minimal and inclusive way. I'm sure it's obvious to most (even people who might get offended by the blatant use of stereotypes) that it's meant to convey males and females, rather than family (parent and child), couples (two people holding hands), just men or women (as it could be if two gender-neutral people were there), or even something more confusingly abstract (two or more smiley faces). If you can think up an alternative that's neither confusing nor offensive to any minority (as in the linked case), while remaining attractive and minimal enough to work as an icon, I think the industry will rapidly adopt it out of self-preservation as much as anything else.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

a3n 12y ago

I never noticed it was there before this. I can't think of a scenario where I would get to that feature by that route, but i don't know everything about how people use LastPass. The pink and blue, with the bobbed hair for the pink guy, is a little anachronistically old fashioned. Some solutions: - remove the icon, or replace it with the LastPass splat icon. - remove the menu entry (if people would normally get to those features in other ways). - If the icon is for a feature that really is best identified by association with the idea of "people" (I'm not convinced), then change it to a blue or grey single person without identifiable hair or clothes; a stick figure with thick sticks.

__xtrimsky 12y ago

it's you honestly. I'm a guy, the guy icon is blue, I don't care. It could have been pink. Our society sees boys in blue and girls in pink. Is it bad ? no Does it mean I can't wear pink ? no Do I care about this specific design ? no, it adds some nice colors to the app. If it was red and yellow it wouldn't make sense.

petercooper 12y ago

A warm up for a long fight against millions of restroom signs? Flippancy aside, the icon in question doesn't even look that nice in context.. a simple silhouette of two "generic" people would certainly look nicer.

reuwsaat 12y ago
it's true. the restroom sign has come up a lot as i've shopped this question around to my friends. i think it's a spot on point. sexism seems primarily to be discussed in the media when extremely heinous things go down. but i think it's equally import to look at the banal, everyday manifestations of it. including bathroom signs. what does going to the bathroom have to do what we wear on our bottom half anyhow. we all drops our pants in order to use the facilities, regardless of gender.
- tompko 12y ago
  It's an easily recognizable icon that indicates which room to use and doesn't rely on which language you speak. For English speakers M and F might be just as easy, but which would you use of حمام للرجال and حمام للنساء?
  - petercooper 12y ago
    Funny story about this is I was in an Irish-themed bar here in the UK and the toilets didn't have symbols but Irish words. I was in a rush and saw "Mna" and "Fir". Mna sounded like a drunken "man" so I went with it. Once I'd finished my business, however, I noticed there were no urinals and it was the women's toilets. I had to laugh.

Abraln 12y ago

It seems the icon itself relates to the difficult of accurately conveying information through small symbols. Do I think this company should have chose a better icon? Yes, but the core shapes and colors are designed to reduce doubt as much as possible. Search "gender symbol" for the closest "non-sexist" alternative, but even that would cause confusion amongst some. Just as a fork and knife is a standard symbol on maps for a reastraunt, (even ones where you use your hands or chopsticks), the symbols become their meaning, not their appearence (see Egyptian hieroglyphs). One has become a symbol for male, the other for female, and their differences need to be significant enough to distinguish between them. It really depends on the intent of whoever chose the icon. -from mobile, so apologies for any errors

bprager 12y ago

As the French would say: vive la différence. But joking aside, classification can be healthy and helps us to orient ourselves. It is one of the basics of learning. If issues arise on types one has to allow the question, what is the issue and who actually has it. Do we no longer value qualities like female or male, ladies and gentlemen?

Suitov 12y ago

Yes, it's sexist, and it's pretty confusing UI when in other contexts they're using their newer arrow-boxy form fill icon. Nothing about two humans says 'fill forms' to me. I don't think you'll get anywhere with Joe from Support, though, and probably not with largely-male HN.

fallinghawks 12y ago

"Extended,,, pink is for girls. Pink is sissy. Dresses are sissy. Girls are sissy " etc has not that much to do with the actual color pink, but OP's projection of what it implies. Not everyone has this rather lengthy and extended negative association with pink or a generic female shape being dressed in a skirt. So I'd say this has more to do with OP's attitude rather than the icon. Distinctions have to be made somehow, otherwise we'd have two identical icons. As for making them letters, well, the point behind universal signs was for people who are not native English speakers.

olgeni 12y ago

"Everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes." Just be glad that the man is blue. If you just erased him, he would actually be... white. oh noes

reuwsaat 12y ago

i was curious as to what people would assume about my gender. i didn't want to say because my question/post was about an icon. not me. and the icon is about USERS. not gender. but, since it's becoming fairly obvious what many of you have assumed, i'll clarify. i'm a guy. i'm white. i'm straight. i'm upper-middle class. was raised christian (but have since converted to otherwise). grew up in texas. hold two degrees. in fact, i went to asu which was the #1 ranked party school one of the years i attended. i worked in a global investment company in the financial district of new york for 5 years before have the insanely fortunate opportunity to take a year off to study mathematics so i could transition to machine learning. i'm not the "persecuted" type. i'm actually the poster boy for not-persecuted. this is not about me. this. is. not. about. me. this is about assumptions. subtle, banal assumptions. (at this time you're encouraged to dig in deep to the hannah arendt reference.) especially in the digital world. we are digital; online there is NO ANATOMY. out with skeuomorphism. web design has gone flat. so what's the rational behind using skirts (gender) to define a user (agent)? "I'm a guy, the guy icon is blue, I don't care." really? really?? and thank you for speaking on behalf of our entire society. you're a guy, you had the right to vote first. you have, on average, better pay. you are more often elected to public office. you occupy more seats on the supreme court. you control a greater percentage of the worlds wealth. i could go on. and on. and on. regarding "adds some nice colors to the app", and this will be my last reply/comment because I'VE GROWN WEARY OF THE FALSE CHOICES PRESENTED AS "COUNTER ARGUMENTS," if the point of the icon is to add color, then use color. if it's to show different users then maybe use faces as netflix does for the ipad. if you want to use symbols, it doesn't have to be m,f,u and thus assume english; many, many other symbols would suffice. similar to what the other person said, when i go to a my favorite mexican restaurant and they have completely non-english, non-'united states culturally', absurd black and white photos to differentiate, i don't walk into the wrong stall. i don't turn stupid and have to ask my server what's what. and like the other person said, if i did, it'd be funny. whatever. we are not stupid. some of us are just not concerned. it's about assumptions. and since several replies have gone off topic, i'll go global. it's not just gender. it's also about culture. it's also about race. it's also about economic freedom. it's also about religion. it's also about language. it is about DIFFERENCE. the difference the icon is trying to demonstrate is the difference between two USERS. rather than give another, of the cuff, option for demonstrating two different USERS and have the entire conversation rear off course, i'll just say, i think we can do better.

jgeorge 12y ago

It's you. Who's to say the pink icon wearing a dress is female? Who's to say the blue icon in pants is male? Isn't making that assumption sexist in itself? Edit: removed snark

reuwsaat 12y ago
who's to say? please see ridiculous amount of references to bathrooms in other comments. next time i'll just submit something on bathrooms. i think it'd do great on hn.
- jeremysmyth 12y ago
  Bathrooms are the most prevalent form of gender segregation on the planet, and they must have easily-communicated disambiguating symbols to work as such. I think it's perfectly reasonable to consider them a prevailing example when discussing a thread about gender-identifying symbols.

lolwutf 12y ago

Oh for christssake. Am I the only one who's really tired that having a gender is being translated into a crime now? This is just absolutely ridiculous. Yes. It's you.