4 ms·

Gosh, it's almost like Cogent being Netflix's former transit provider to Comcast and Verizon is the common link or something. I can't wait to see people freak

by cheald 13y ago

Gosh, it's almost like Cogent being Netflix's former transit provider to Comcast and Verizon is the common link or something. I can't wait to see people freak out about and completely misunderstand this one, too, though. It's interesting that Netflix is continuing to ink these deals while waging a PR war against the people they're contracting with, rather than just backing Cogent's play. If they're really concerned about this kind of thing, then it kinda seems like inking the deal and then complaining about it puts them in a really morally indefensible position, unless they're just counting on public hatred of the telecoms to carry them to an advantageous position.

mindslight 13y ago
> unless they're just counting on public hatred of the telecoms to carry them to an advantageous position. Pretty much. They've made plain their envisioned future, and now they're haggling over the price. Netflix as a company doesn't actually need or want net neutrality, because free communications based on alternative protocols will undermine their lucrative position as the new hip entertainment provider. If you're giving Netflix money then you are responsible for helping to centralize (and thus destroy) the Internet.
- beedogs 13y ago
  That's cool; I just pirate everything anyway. (Don't worry, I live in Australia, where it's morally justifiable and usually the only option.)
  - redorb 13y ago
    Is stealing - if that is how one might see it.. ever justified besides for survival? There is always the option to not partake in things not available in your region. I mean it's ok to feel justified personally - but I wouldn't.
    - te_chris 13y ago
      GoT the day it's released really is THAT necessary. Twitter is just unbearable otherwise....
sheetjs 13y ago
It seems as if Netflix is more threatened by competitors like HBO Go and Hulu and Amazon Video than by the telecoms, so deals like this give Netflix an edge over other upstarts
edraferi 13y ago
They have to do something as an interim solution to keep the service working. Hopefully Comcast et al will get smacked down regardless.
- cheald 13y ago
  They could purchase transit from someone that isn't Cogent. It would be more expensive than what they're paying the ISPs, but I rather doubt they'd be talking about "tolls" in that case, because everyone that originates traffic on the internet pays for transit. That's been one of my primary issues with Netflix's behavior in this whole thing. They've presented this false dichotemy of "we pay the ISPs protection money, or we can't deliver our bits to you :(", and it's just...not true. Here's a list of everyone that peers with Comcast. You might notice that the list is larger than "Cogent and Netflix": http://bgp.he.net/AS7922#_peers http://bgp.he.net/AS7922#_peers
  - wmf 13y ago
    Do you think that would help? I don't. When Netflix was using Tata, the Tata-Comcast links also got congested. Even if Netflix spread their traffic across all the backbones, I suspect Comcast would just refuse to upgrade all those transit connections.
    - cheald 13y ago
      Yes, actually, I do think it would help. Perhaps not in the short term, but let me explain what I mean. Comcast isn't specifically throttling Netflix, they're just not providing sufficient link capacity for primetime delivery of traffic (including Netflix) via some routes. Netflix could provide traffic across alternate (or multiple alternate) routes; as those saturate (particularly with the emergence of 4k streaming), Comcast's service as a whole would suffer. Anyone who was delivering traffic via Cogent to Comcast could attest to how awful their delivery was during primetime; if that were happening on multiple links, it wouldn't just be Netflix and a few other services that were slow, it would be the entire internet, from the perspective of the Comcast customer. This would serve to exert pressure on Comcast to upgrade those links. It's not a pretty solution, but the issue isn't "Netflix is throttled", the issue is "Comcast is a shitty ISP", and Netflix peering with them directly does nothing to solve that. Degrading multiple routes will exert more pressure on Comcast to improve than just about anything short of Google Fiber moving in next door.
higherpurpose 13y ago
Look what ISP's have been doing to Netflix lately to force them to pay: http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/this-hilarious-graph-of-netflix-speeds-shows-the-importance-of-net-neutrality/ http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/this-hilarious... It's really a shame Netflix just gave up instead of fighting them, though.
- cheald 13y ago
  You're looking at a correlation and presuming a cause because it supports your presuppositions. Looking at those graphs, I notice two interesting things. First, Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T all experience downward trends starting around Q4 2013...which is right around when Netflix rolled out SuperHD to everyone (which would have increased throughput, and exacerbated saturated links.) Their trends roughly track each other...and the remaining ones tick upward when Netflix started routing directly to Comcast. Now that's curious (anyone care to traceroute Netflix's streaming edges from an ATT uverse connection?) Second, there are two ISPs on that chart which don't have throughput issues. Cox delivers Netflix via XO, I don't know about Cablevision. Did they just miss the Evil Memo or something? Or perhaps there is a fundamentally different issue at play here other than thugs demanding protection money?
23david 13y ago
IMO, Netflix management caving in here, while at the same time RAISING prices, shows just how strong their management feels their market position is. Hello monopoly. It may be non-intuitive, but this kind of 'tax' is actually to Netflix's benefit. From now on, it'll be much more expensive and difficult for any other competitors to enter the on-demand video market. Regulation/taxes often help solidify the status-quo. Look at the healthcare/finance/education industries...
- dbarlett 13y ago
  Warren Buffett calls it an "economic moat". http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/05/economicmoat.asp http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/05/economicmoat.asp
- cheald 13y ago
  It is absolutely to Netflix's benefit. Their negotiated rate per megabyte delivered is almost certainly substantially lower than a competitor would be able to manage on market-rate transit. This move doesn't raise rates for competitors, but it certainly goes give Netflix an financial advantage that a non-established player wouldn't be able to gain.

by cheald 13y ago

mindslight 13y ago

> unless they're just counting on public hatred of the telecoms to carry them to an advantageous position. Pretty much. They've made plain their envisioned future, and now they're haggling over the price. Netflix as a company doesn't actually need or want net neutrality, because free communications based on alternative protocols will undermine their lucrative position as the new hip entertainment provider. If you're giving Netflix money then you are responsible for helping to centralize (and thus destroy) the Internet.

beedogs 13y ago
That's cool; I just pirate everything anyway. (Don't worry, I live in Australia, where it's morally justifiable and usually the only option.)
- redorb 13y ago
  Is stealing - if that is how one might see it.. ever justified besides for survival? There is always the option to not partake in things not available in your region. I mean it's ok to feel justified personally - but I wouldn't.
  - te_chris 13y ago
    GoT the day it's released really is THAT necessary. Twitter is just unbearable otherwise....

sheetjs 13y ago

It seems as if Netflix is more threatened by competitors like HBO Go and Hulu and Amazon Video than by the telecoms, so deals like this give Netflix an edge over other upstarts

edraferi 13y ago

They have to do something as an interim solution to keep the service working. Hopefully Comcast et al will get smacked down regardless.

cheald 13y ago
They could purchase transit from someone that isn't Cogent. It would be more expensive than what they're paying the ISPs, but I rather doubt they'd be talking about "tolls" in that case, because everyone that originates traffic on the internet pays for transit. That's been one of my primary issues with Netflix's behavior in this whole thing. They've presented this false dichotemy of "we pay the ISPs protection money, or we can't deliver our bits to you :(", and it's just...not true. Here's a list of everyone that peers with Comcast. You might notice that the list is larger than "Cogent and Netflix": http://bgp.he.net/AS7922#_peers http://bgp.he.net/AS7922#_peers
- wmf 13y ago
  Do you think that would help? I don't. When Netflix was using Tata, the Tata-Comcast links also got congested. Even if Netflix spread their traffic across all the backbones, I suspect Comcast would just refuse to upgrade all those transit connections.
  - cheald 13y ago
    Yes, actually, I do think it would help. Perhaps not in the short term, but let me explain what I mean. Comcast isn't specifically throttling Netflix, they're just not providing sufficient link capacity for primetime delivery of traffic (including Netflix) via some routes. Netflix could provide traffic across alternate (or multiple alternate) routes; as those saturate (particularly with the emergence of 4k streaming), Comcast's service as a whole would suffer. Anyone who was delivering traffic via Cogent to Comcast could attest to how awful their delivery was during primetime; if that were happening on multiple links, it wouldn't just be Netflix and a few other services that were slow, it would be the entire internet, from the perspective of the Comcast customer. This would serve to exert pressure on Comcast to upgrade those links. It's not a pretty solution, but the issue isn't "Netflix is throttled", the issue is "Comcast is a shitty ISP", and Netflix peering with them directly does nothing to solve that. Degrading multiple routes will exert more pressure on Comcast to improve than just about anything short of Google Fiber moving in next door.

higherpurpose 13y ago

Look what ISP's have been doing to Netflix lately to force them to pay: http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/this-hilarious-graph-of-netflix-speeds-shows-the-importance-of-net-neutrality/ http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/this-hilarious... It's really a shame Netflix just gave up instead of fighting them, though.

cheald 13y ago
You're looking at a correlation and presuming a cause because it supports your presuppositions. Looking at those graphs, I notice two interesting things. First, Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T all experience downward trends starting around Q4 2013...which is right around when Netflix rolled out SuperHD to everyone (which would have increased throughput, and exacerbated saturated links.) Their trends roughly track each other...and the remaining ones tick upward when Netflix started routing directly to Comcast. Now that's curious (anyone care to traceroute Netflix's streaming edges from an ATT uverse connection?) Second, there are two ISPs on that chart which don't have throughput issues. Cox delivers Netflix via XO, I don't know about Cablevision. Did they just miss the Evil Memo or something? Or perhaps there is a fundamentally different issue at play here other than thugs demanding protection money?

23david 13y ago

IMO, Netflix management caving in here, while at the same time RAISING prices, shows just how strong their management feels their market position is. Hello monopoly. It may be non-intuitive, but this kind of 'tax' is actually to Netflix's benefit. From now on, it'll be much more expensive and difficult for any other competitors to enter the on-demand video market. Regulation/taxes often help solidify the status-quo. Look at the healthcare/finance/education industries...

dbarlett 13y ago
Warren Buffett calls it an "economic moat". http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/05/economicmoat.asp http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/05/economicmoat.asp
cheald 13y ago
It is absolutely to Netflix's benefit. Their negotiated rate per megabyte delivered is almost certainly substantially lower than a competitor would be able to manage on market-rate transit. This move doesn't raise rates for competitors, but it certainly goes give Netflix an financial advantage that a non-established player wouldn't be able to gain.