4 ms·

Quotas don't necessarily fix things _now_ -- they create a new normal for the next generation.

by droob 12y ago

sirseal 12y ago
The ends don't justify the means: having a sexist practice to combat sexism is using the wrong means.
- eli 12y ago
  I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't think PyLadies and Women Who Code are sexist. It's certainly not the same as the institutional sexism in the tech industry.
  - sirseal 12y ago
    I should have been more precise. I agree with you that PyLadies and Women Who Code should not be labeled as sexist organizations. There's a distinct difference between targeting a group of people based upon their sex and baring a group of people from an activity on the basis of sex. The two organizations you mention target software engineers who are women and chip away at the institutionalized sexism in the industry. On the other hand, having a qutota is a discriminatory policy. By definition, a quota is saying, "we're not accepting you because you are X." In this case, X is "a man." It's a subtle difference, but at the end of the day, sexism is discrimination on the basis of sex. Thus any practice that discriminates on the basis of sex is sexist.
- rmc 12y ago
  Quotas like this aren't sexist https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7660512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7660512
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Technically everything that changes something creates a "new normal". Quotas not only force outcomes, but they breed tokenism.
bdg 12y ago
No. Quotas are numbers that are set and measured. They are not a means for changing hearts and minds, or actually making motion towards a goal. The quota doesn't even need to reflect the goal, it's just a number, and in the case of this gender equality we're not even scrutinizing if it is meaningful. This is the same metric frat bros use to make sure they don't have sausage parties, why is it good here too? Does a 1:1 ration equate to unblocked opportunity? If so, what does the high ratio of male contributors to wikipedia mean?

Quotas don't necessarily fix things _now_ -- they create a new normal for the next generation.

by droob 12y ago

Quotas don't necessarily fix things _now_ -- they create a new normal for the next generation.

sirseal 12y ago

The ends don't justify the means: having a sexist practice to combat sexism is using the wrong means.

eli 12y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't think PyLadies and Women Who Code are sexist. It's certainly not the same as the institutional sexism in the tech industry.
- sirseal 12y ago
  I should have been more precise. I agree with you that PyLadies and Women Who Code should not be labeled as sexist organizations. There's a distinct difference between targeting a group of people based upon their sex and baring a group of people from an activity on the basis of sex. The two organizations you mention target software engineers who are women and chip away at the institutionalized sexism in the industry. On the other hand, having a qutota is a discriminatory policy. By definition, a quota is saying, "we're not accepting you because you are X." In this case, X is "a man." It's a subtle difference, but at the end of the day, sexism is discrimination on the basis of sex. Thus any practice that discriminates on the basis of sex is sexist.
rmc 12y ago
Quotas like this aren't sexist https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7660512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7660512

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

Technically everything that changes something creates a "new normal". Quotas not only force outcomes, but they breed tokenism.

bdg 12y ago

No. Quotas are numbers that are set and measured. They are not a means for changing hearts and minds, or actually making motion towards a goal. The quota doesn't even need to reflect the goal, it's just a number, and in the case of this gender equality we're not even scrutinizing if it is meaningful. This is the same metric frat bros use to make sure they don't have sausage parties, why is it good here too? Does a 1:1 ration equate to unblocked opportunity? If so, what does the high ratio of male contributors to wikipedia mean?