4 ms·

French wine experts can't tell a grand cru from an ordinary table wine

24 points by jcwentz 19y ago

DanielBMarkham 19y ago
Yet wine ratings in places like Wine Spectator are always done in a blind manner. http://www.winespectatorschool.com/wineschool/Tasting_Guide http://www.winespectatorschool.com/wineschool/Tasting_Guide Wonder how both things can be true at the same time? Perhaps the tasting methodologies are just a fancy random-number generator? Something smells fishy.
- cstejerean 19y ago
  Well, in a blind tasting it's much more likely that the judges will describe the quality of the wine itself. Otherwise the appearance of the wine and the bottles make a difference. This holds true for any product and companies spend tons of money finding ways to optimize their packaging to "enhance" the perceived quality of their product.
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  It's a matter of trust. Each of these people has had thousands of red wines served to them, with none of them being an impostor white with food coloring. Therefore if a white is served to them in disguise, they simply assume it's a red, because why would anyone ever do that? Also, whites are typically served chilled, reds aren't. If someone gave me a warm white wine with red food coloring in it I might not care for it but I'd definitely be fooled. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference. A much better test would be to blindfold them and ask which are whites and which are red. I bet they'd do considerably better.
Alex3917 19y ago
In other news, experts can't tell the difference between a long line and a short line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments This study doesn't show that there is no difference between a great wine and a mediocre wine. All it shows is that people can be tricked into disbelieving their senses. EDIT: As for the study about experts disagreeing, you could just as easily claim that because some ice cream experts prefer vanilla and others prefer chocolate, the ice cream industry is teh fraud.
edw519 19y ago
<expert> I don't know why anyone even bothers serving Coke. Pepsi is so much better. Obviously. And Rails is so much better than PHP. And Apple is so much better than Microsoft. And Chevy is so much better than Ford. See how easy that was? </expert>
- german 19y ago
  expert { background: #000; color: #FFF; font-size: 40px; text-align: center; } All expert tags need some CSS ;)
  - DanielBMarkham 19y ago
    Why stop there? This guy's an expert, right? .expert { font-style:oblique; text-decoration:blink; font-weight: 900; }
    - german 19y ago
      You are right, but we missed something: position: absolute; top: 0; left:0;
indie01 19y ago
It's indeed an industry loaded with pretentiousness. Here's a clip from a related and interesting article about the wine industry: Source: http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/05/news/companies/Two_Buck_Chuck.biz2/index.htm http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/05/news/companies/Two_Buck_Chuc... >>>In 2002, Franzia persuaded Trader Joe's to sell a low-end label called Charles Shaw (after the winemaker who sold the tony label to Franzia, and dubbed Two Buck Chuck by consumers) that waged war on domestic wines in the $4 to $10 range - and was named best chardonnay in a blind taste test at July's California State Fair over far pricier competition. The label is one of America's fastest-growing, selling 5 million cases per year, all through one chain of stores.
- joeguilmette 19y ago
  the reason that charles shaw wins those taste testing contests is pretty simple, and shady to say the least. the way they make their wine is by purchasing overstock of grapes from other producers. the grapes are very spotty and inconsistent in quality, which is why you can buy a case of the wine and every bottle will be completely different. when they submit charles shaw to tastings, do you think they pick a random bottle out of inventory? of course not, they pick the best of what they have so that they can compete.
  - dfranke 19y ago
    If that's true, then it's a serious flaw in the methodology of the people who do the testing. They shouldn't allow the brewer to submit the samples. They should pick a few bottles of the same vintage from various retailers and mix them together.
  - Alex3917 19y ago
    The price per ton of Chardonnay is relatively inexpensive, especially if you're getting your grapes from outside of Napa. Also, by California law only 75% of the grapes have to come from the named varietal on the bottle, so they could easily be blending in some Chenin Blanc or Sauvignon Blanc for consistency. Lastly, there is a lot of post-production stuff you can do to Chardonnay, most famously involving oak, but there is other stuff as well. So it seems possible that they can source from a wide variety of vinyards and still have a relatively consistent product, given the wide variety of options available under California law.
greendestiny 19y ago
If you go to the store without much prior knowledge and grab an expensive bottle of the shelf your chances of getting something great aren't that high. Some things to consider: wines sell for the same price whether or not it was a good or a bad year. A premium wine in a bad year is likely to be less enjoyable than a cheap wine in good year. Premium wines are generally made to be aged, so if you don't cellar your wines you are wasting your money buying an expensive wine. Even the snobbiest wine collector doesn't suggest there is a linear relationship between price and enjoyment, but premium wines generally take more effort to make. A lot of the quality of a wine comes down to the fruit. Do you doubt your ability to identify a beautiful strawberry?
- r7000 19y ago
  Well, the fact that so many strawberries nowadays are large and water-filled (from being over-watered) to make them look super-sized rather than more flavour-packed smaller runtier berries may imply there are quite a few consumers who can't identify a good strawberry.
  - greendestiny 19y ago
    People buy on the look, not the taste. And they generally don't want to pay anymore for a great tasting strawberry even if they knew how to find one. Most people wouldn't deny there is a difference in a crap strawberry and a great one though.
mattmaroon 19y ago
You should see what master sommeliers have to go through to earn that title. There are more people out there than you could imagine who can look at a glass of wine and tell you what varietal (or roughly what blend) it is, what vintage it is from, what location the grapes were grown in, rough ABV, etc. It's seriously mind boggling how good some of those guys are.

24 points by jcwentz 19y ago

Yet wine ratings in places like Wine Spectator are always done in a blind manner. http://www.winespectatorschool.com/wineschool/Tasting_Guide http://www.winespectatorschool.com/wineschool/Tasting_Guide Wonder how both things can be true at the same time? Perhaps the tasting methodologies are just a fancy random-number generator? Something smells fishy.

cstejerean 19y ago
Well, in a blind tasting it's much more likely that the judges will describe the quality of the wine itself. Otherwise the appearance of the wine and the bottles make a difference. This holds true for any product and companies spend tons of money finding ways to optimize their packaging to "enhance" the perceived quality of their product.
mattmaroon 19y ago
It's a matter of trust. Each of these people has had thousands of red wines served to them, with none of them being an impostor white with food coloring. Therefore if a white is served to them in disguise, they simply assume it's a red, because why would anyone ever do that? Also, whites are typically served chilled, reds aren't. If someone gave me a warm white wine with red food coloring in it I might not care for it but I'd definitely be fooled. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference. A much better test would be to blindfold them and ask which are whites and which are red. I bet they'd do considerably better.

Alex3917 19y ago

In other news, experts can't tell the difference between a long line and a short line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments This study doesn't show that there is no difference between a great wine and a mediocre wine. All it shows is that people can be tricked into disbelieving their senses. EDIT: As for the study about experts disagreeing, you could just as easily claim that because some ice cream experts prefer vanilla and others prefer chocolate, the ice cream industry is teh fraud.

edw519 19y ago

<expert> I don't know why anyone even bothers serving Coke. Pepsi is so much better. Obviously. And Rails is so much better than PHP. And Apple is so much better than Microsoft. And Chevy is so much better than Ford. See how easy that was? </expert>

german 19y ago
expert { background: #000; color: #FFF; font-size: 40px; text-align: center; } All expert tags need some CSS ;)
- DanielBMarkham 19y ago
  Why stop there? This guy's an expert, right? .expert { font-style:oblique; text-decoration:blink; font-weight: 900; }
  - german 19y ago
    You are right, but we missed something: position: absolute; top: 0; left:0;

indie01 19y ago

It's indeed an industry loaded with pretentiousness. Here's a clip from a related and interesting article about the wine industry: Source: http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/05/news/companies/Two_Buck_Chuck.biz2/index.htm http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/05/news/companies/Two_Buck_Chuc... >>>In 2002, Franzia persuaded Trader Joe's to sell a low-end label called Charles Shaw (after the winemaker who sold the tony label to Franzia, and dubbed Two Buck Chuck by consumers) that waged war on domestic wines in the $4 to $10 range - and was named best chardonnay in a blind taste test at July's California State Fair over far pricier competition. The label is one of America's fastest-growing, selling 5 million cases per year, all through one chain of stores.

joeguilmette 19y ago
the reason that charles shaw wins those taste testing contests is pretty simple, and shady to say the least. the way they make their wine is by purchasing overstock of grapes from other producers. the grapes are very spotty and inconsistent in quality, which is why you can buy a case of the wine and every bottle will be completely different. when they submit charles shaw to tastings, do you think they pick a random bottle out of inventory? of course not, they pick the best of what they have so that they can compete.
- dfranke 19y ago
  If that's true, then it's a serious flaw in the methodology of the people who do the testing. They shouldn't allow the brewer to submit the samples. They should pick a few bottles of the same vintage from various retailers and mix them together.
- Alex3917 19y ago
  The price per ton of Chardonnay is relatively inexpensive, especially if you're getting your grapes from outside of Napa. Also, by California law only 75% of the grapes have to come from the named varietal on the bottle, so they could easily be blending in some Chenin Blanc or Sauvignon Blanc for consistency. Lastly, there is a lot of post-production stuff you can do to Chardonnay, most famously involving oak, but there is other stuff as well. So it seems possible that they can source from a wide variety of vinyards and still have a relatively consistent product, given the wide variety of options available under California law.

greendestiny 19y ago

If you go to the store without much prior knowledge and grab an expensive bottle of the shelf your chances of getting something great aren't that high. Some things to consider: wines sell for the same price whether or not it was a good or a bad year. A premium wine in a bad year is likely to be less enjoyable than a cheap wine in good year. Premium wines are generally made to be aged, so if you don't cellar your wines you are wasting your money buying an expensive wine. Even the snobbiest wine collector doesn't suggest there is a linear relationship between price and enjoyment, but premium wines generally take more effort to make. A lot of the quality of a wine comes down to the fruit. Do you doubt your ability to identify a beautiful strawberry?

r7000 19y ago
Well, the fact that so many strawberries nowadays are large and water-filled (from being over-watered) to make them look super-sized rather than more flavour-packed smaller runtier berries may imply there are quite a few consumers who can't identify a good strawberry.
- greendestiny 19y ago
  People buy on the look, not the taste. And they generally don't want to pay anymore for a great tasting strawberry even if they knew how to find one. Most people wouldn't deny there is a difference in a crap strawberry and a great one though.

mattmaroon 19y ago

You should see what master sommeliers have to go through to earn that title. There are more people out there than you could imagine who can look at a glass of wine and tell you what varietal (or roughly what blend) it is, what vintage it is from, what location the grapes were grown in, rough ABV, etc. It's seriously mind boggling how good some of those guys are.