3 ms·

I had a single mother and she loathed the feminist revolution. She said it was because of the feminists going back to work and creating dual income families th

by pj 17y ago

I had a single mother and she loathed the feminist revolution. She said it was because of the feminists going back to work and creating dual income families that it was financially more difficult on single parents. Before the feminist revolution, most families survived just fine on a single income, that of the father.

mahmud 17y ago
Well, that's just a single anecdote isn't it? I am a fucking Arab and I can tell you this; our economies are paralyzed because Arab nations are operating at half speed since women are pretty much outside the work force (or if they're working, they're underpaid, under utilized, or most bloody likely, worked to exhaustion but uncredited.) The fact that here we have a group of men discussing the "problems" of feminism doesn't mean feminism is bad. It just means you guys don't like it; which is fine, you're not supposed to like an ideology that's out to make your social model of a benevolent-patriarch-at-the-helm obsolete. I come from a place where men's judgment and leadership has consistently failed.
- sofal 17y ago
  Well, that's just a single anecdote isn't it? Was it presented as data? I didn't realize that. Also, I didn't see any real data on your theory of Arab nations being at half speed because of the lack of women in the work force. The fact that here we have a group of men discussing the "problems" of feminism doesn't mean feminism is bad. Did anyone make that conclusion here, even implicitly? You're not supposed to like an ideology that's out to make your social model of a benevolent-patriarch-at-the-helm obsolete. Who are you talking to? Who here has put forward an ideology like that? You obviously have very strong feelings on this subject. Let's keep it real and civil.
  - mahmud 17y ago
    Allow me first to apologize to pj, he bore the brunt of my harsh out pour against a problem that I have to face on a daily basis. And in the same breath, allow me to express my disinterest in discussing feminism as a movement any further, without the presence of a good representation of its sole subjects, i.e. women. Without a sizeable representation of women in this forum there could never be a good dialogue about feminism ("good" here being highly subjective.) I say this because I remember the days of the Bush administration, when an inbreeding of ideas and a biased "discussion" amongst a gang of highly like minded outsiders delivered the final verdict on the future of "us" Muslims, their de facto colonial subjects. I read columns from across the American political "divide" everyday, each supporting the last in mutual self-congratulating orgy, each explaining our "problem" and proposing very similar "solutions" to impose upon us; sometimes threatening, other times sympathetic, but always patronizing and paternalistic in its tone. I never was a feminist, not still (I couldn't be even if I wanted to!) but at least now I understand not to "think" for the Other. Women's demand for self-empowerment is an issue squarely in their hands. They could argue amongst themselves all they want, but I as a man have learned better not to offer any unsolicited "feedback", having never experienced their condition. Now let me answer you sofal. Also, I didn't see any real data on your theory of Arab nations being at half speed because of the lack of women in the work force I said above that I was addressing a "problem that I have to face everyday". The problems of the Arab world are numerous, but one thing we can both be certain of: the total absence of the female voice from every kind of leadership. Even with the lack of sufficient research and data, I can look across the landscape, or at least my Thunderbird contact list of several hundred executives, and I can't help but wonder if things would have been better with just one woman in their midst. Also, asking for data about the Arab world is akin to sophistry, seeing how half of the nations there are U.S.-sanctioned tyrannies, and the other half are closed despotic regimes that would never allow for unfavorable research to see the light of day (you could do it once, but that's the end of your presence there.) Western "press" is safe to ignore the BIG offenders and abusers of human rights, and it can only wiggle its little "democratic" tail against a few, hand-selected and Western-approved "bad guys".
    - pj 17y ago
      Hey mahmud, no offense taken. You're just speaking with passion. I don't take it personally.
      - mahmud 17y ago
        Toohey's Extra Dry. That's what I owe you my man, and that's what I have in me hand at the moment :-P Cheers!
        pj 17y ago
        I'll take you up on that if we ever meet. :)
calambrac 17y ago
I've never crunched the numbers myself or seen any formal studies, but the perception that the second income in dual-income families usually goes right into costs that would have been avoided had someone stayed at home is pretty widespread. I don't mean to be rude by asking, but did your mother have the kind of help that married couples can take for granted (say, from extended family), or did she have to do it all herself?
- pj 17y ago
  My grandmother helped watching me sometimes. Financially she did it all herself. I had a step dad two times, neither of them worked much though. Contrary to the idea that two parents are better than one, I thought life was better when it was just mom and me. My grandmother was around a while. She watched over me during the summers sometimes and lived with us a while, but she wasn't reliable, so mom paid for baby sitting a couple years. The rest of the time I was latch key. She also finished her degree while I was growing up. She'd take me to the college library with her. I was always frustrated by the lack of books for kids my age, but somehow I endured. From the time I was 5, she had a good job with the government, so life was pretty stable. Except for the name calling, I only felt the effects of not having more money once. We were on the way back from her university and we stopped at a convenience store and I asked for a sandwich. She said we couldn't afford it. They were a special sandwich I really loved and not being able to afford it, I thought they must have cost $20 or something. Years later, when I was in high school I stopped and got one of those sandwiches for $2 and it hit me all of a sudden that we didn't have a lot of money. Except for that, I always felt like I had all I wanted. Looking back, had we had more money, I probably would have had a computer growing up. Maybe I'd be better at programming, or maybe I'd have gotten bored with it. Who knows. I lived pretty rural, so our house was more than big enough. I worked during the summers as quickly as I could, so I had my spending money. I think it actually helped me to be honest. Not having a lot as a kid and finding happiness anyway has helped me live frugally as an adult as well. I find cheap ways to run my startup as well. I think today, most families have dual incomes and both parents are away most of the day. Mom was at home with me as much as parents are at home now, maybe even more. I never really felt like anything was missing.
- mattm 17y ago

by pj 17y ago

mahmud 17y ago

Well, that's just a single anecdote isn't it? I am a fucking Arab and I can tell you this; our economies are paralyzed because Arab nations are operating at half speed since women are pretty much outside the work force (or if they're working, they're underpaid, under utilized, or most bloody likely, worked to exhaustion but uncredited.) The fact that here we have a group of men discussing the "problems" of feminism doesn't mean feminism is bad. It just means you guys don't like it; which is fine, you're not supposed to like an ideology that's out to make your social model of a benevolent-patriarch-at-the-helm obsolete. I come from a place where men's judgment and leadership has consistently failed.

sofal 17y ago
Well, that's just a single anecdote isn't it? Was it presented as data? I didn't realize that. Also, I didn't see any real data on your theory of Arab nations being at half speed because of the lack of women in the work force. The fact that here we have a group of men discussing the "problems" of feminism doesn't mean feminism is bad. Did anyone make that conclusion here, even implicitly? You're not supposed to like an ideology that's out to make your social model of a benevolent-patriarch-at-the-helm obsolete. Who are you talking to? Who here has put forward an ideology like that? You obviously have very strong feelings on this subject. Let's keep it real and civil.
- mahmud 17y ago
  Allow me first to apologize to pj, he bore the brunt of my harsh out pour against a problem that I have to face on a daily basis. And in the same breath, allow me to express my disinterest in discussing feminism as a movement any further, without the presence of a good representation of its sole subjects, i.e. women. Without a sizeable representation of women in this forum there could never be a good dialogue about feminism ("good" here being highly subjective.) I say this because I remember the days of the Bush administration, when an inbreeding of ideas and a biased "discussion" amongst a gang of highly like minded outsiders delivered the final verdict on the future of "us" Muslims, their de facto colonial subjects. I read columns from across the American political "divide" everyday, each supporting the last in mutual self-congratulating orgy, each explaining our "problem" and proposing very similar "solutions" to impose upon us; sometimes threatening, other times sympathetic, but always patronizing and paternalistic in its tone. I never was a feminist, not still (I couldn't be even if I wanted to!) but at least now I understand not to "think" for the Other. Women's demand for self-empowerment is an issue squarely in their hands. They could argue amongst themselves all they want, but I as a man have learned better not to offer any unsolicited "feedback", having never experienced their condition. Now let me answer you sofal. Also, I didn't see any real data on your theory of Arab nations being at half speed because of the lack of women in the work force I said above that I was addressing a "problem that I have to face everyday". The problems of the Arab world are numerous, but one thing we can both be certain of: the total absence of the female voice from every kind of leadership. Even with the lack of sufficient research and data, I can look across the landscape, or at least my Thunderbird contact list of several hundred executives, and I can't help but wonder if things would have been better with just one woman in their midst. Also, asking for data about the Arab world is akin to sophistry, seeing how half of the nations there are U.S.-sanctioned tyrannies, and the other half are closed despotic regimes that would never allow for unfavorable research to see the light of day (you could do it once, but that's the end of your presence there.) Western "press" is safe to ignore the BIG offenders and abusers of human rights, and it can only wiggle its little "democratic" tail against a few, hand-selected and Western-approved "bad guys".
  - pj 17y ago
    Hey mahmud, no offense taken. You're just speaking with passion. I don't take it personally.
    - mahmud 17y ago
      Toohey's Extra Dry. That's what I owe you my man, and that's what I have in me hand at the moment :-P Cheers!
      - pj 17y ago
        I'll take you up on that if we ever meet. :)

calambrac 17y ago

I've never crunched the numbers myself or seen any formal studies, but the perception that the second income in dual-income families usually goes right into costs that would have been avoided had someone stayed at home is pretty widespread. I don't mean to be rude by asking, but did your mother have the kind of help that married couples can take for granted (say, from extended family), or did she have to do it all herself?

pj 17y ago
My grandmother helped watching me sometimes. Financially she did it all herself. I had a step dad two times, neither of them worked much though. Contrary to the idea that two parents are better than one, I thought life was better when it was just mom and me. My grandmother was around a while. She watched over me during the summers sometimes and lived with us a while, but she wasn't reliable, so mom paid for baby sitting a couple years. The rest of the time I was latch key. She also finished her degree while I was growing up. She'd take me to the college library with her. I was always frustrated by the lack of books for kids my age, but somehow I endured. From the time I was 5, she had a good job with the government, so life was pretty stable. Except for the name calling, I only felt the effects of not having more money once. We were on the way back from her university and we stopped at a convenience store and I asked for a sandwich. She said we couldn't afford it. They were a special sandwich I really loved and not being able to afford it, I thought they must have cost $20 or something. Years later, when I was in high school I stopped and got one of those sandwiches for $2 and it hit me all of a sudden that we didn't have a lot of money. Except for that, I always felt like I had all I wanted. Looking back, had we had more money, I probably would have had a computer growing up. Maybe I'd be better at programming, or maybe I'd have gotten bored with it. Who knows. I lived pretty rural, so our house was more than big enough. I worked during the summers as quickly as I could, so I had my spending money. I think it actually helped me to be honest. Not having a lot as a kid and finding happiness anyway has helped me live frugally as an adult as well. I find cheap ways to run my startup as well. I think today, most families have dual incomes and both parents are away most of the day. Mom was at home with me as much as parents are at home now, maybe even more. I never really felt like anything was missing.
mattm 17y ago