8 ms·

The Sorry State of Peer-to-Peer iOS-to-Android connectivity

79 points by derwildemomo 12y ago

zurn 12y ago
WebRTC works pretty well on Android. But apparently Apple has kept it out of iOS Safari and doesn't allow other browsers to implement it?
- derwildemomo 12y ago
  Forgot about that one, thank you. Another one on the list, unfortunately.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  Apple needs to allow serious browser competition on iOS. But of course they won't until more developers and users start asking them for it.
- jmspring 12y ago
  WebRTC does not currently exist on the desktop Safari either. I'm sure if a 3rd party wanted to implement WebRTC in a browser for iOS, they are probably welcome to do so.
- foo2312 12y ago
  As far as I am aware, Apple does not seem to have a policy preventing this type of work. There was a fairly well-publicized release of an experimental codebase from Ericsson: http://labs.ericsson.com/apps/bowser http://labs.ericsson.com/apps/bowser, which has since been retired (although as far as I know, not due to any conflict with Apple): http://labs.ericsson.com/blog/retiring-bowser http://labs.ericsson.com/blog/retiring-bowser.
- nl 12y ago
  That's a different layer - it runs on top of an already established network. This is about establishing some kind of connection. WebRTC also requires a central server for discovery (typically overy HTTP I think?). It maybe possible to replace that with Bluetooth LE, but then the WebRTC connections to each other will need to run over an TCP network.
habosa 12y ago
The popular game app "Spaceteam" does an amazing job of real time p2p communication between iOS and Android devices. It would be great if the developer could release some sort of open-source library for those connections so other people could build on his/her work.
- morsch 12y ago
  Not via Bluetooth though. Also, mobile hotspot clients (any OS) do not see the host. We failed to play on a recent camping trip.
  - lmm 12y ago
    Rather than a mobile hotspot you want to create an ad-hoc wifi network between your devices. I've successfully played that way.
- wvenable 12y ago
  This really isn't device-to-device communication -- both the iOS and Android devices have to be on the same WiFi network for Spaceteam to work.
  - habosa 12y ago
    Only when using cross-platform. Bluetooth works for Android-->Android or iOS-->iOS.
- zbowling 12y ago
  Hey! That was our doing. :-) Apportable (Winter 2011) worked to bring Spaceteam over to Android and we had to face this problem head on. Bluetooth LE does work for Android <-> iOS but it requires a really new Android device with the right hardware, otherwise the safest option is Wifi. A lot of code involved. We open sourced the code we wrote to run on the Android side: https://github.com/apportable/Bluetooth https://github.com/apportable/Bluetooth
  - habosa 12y ago
fidotron 12y ago
This is the main area where I suspect Google's greater reliance on clouds leads them to castrate their operating systems. Last time I checked Chrome OS still didn't even support Bonjour mDNS. (Still the case, and it's related to this first mentioned in 2009: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13573 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13573 ) The Android stuff alone is an inconsistent trainwreck (because not all hardware supports all options on a given version of the OS either) and it took them a long time to get there. Apple really have been leading the sane local peer-to-peer world ever since Bonjour first appeared, and the new developments have just extended their lead. It will be interesting to see just how this difference affects the nature of their respective wearables.
- drivebyubnt 12y ago
  FWIW Java based mDNS libraries works fine on stock Android. I believe mDNS is the standards body name for the protocol that Bonjour uses.
  - dottrap 12y ago
    Zeroconf (Zero Configuration Networking) is the standards body name. mDNS is one of 3 components that Zeroconf uses, the other two being local link addressing and DNS service discovery. jMDNS works fine on Android but it is a 3rd party dependency you have to add and it is slow to start up. Android 4.1 started shipping their own native Zeroconf implementation (Network Service Discovery) which kind of works, but is buggy as hell.
  - fidotron 12y ago
    Yeah, kind of. Now that they've rolled some of it into the OS things are better, but in the bad days before 4.0 you'd get devices hard wired to discard any broadcast or multicast packets while the screen was off and so on. Manufacturers had a distinct tendency to mess with anything not explicitly used in the OS. Google aren't helped when people like Samsung decide to redefine the bump to file transfer to mean NFC to initiate WiFi Direct, not what everyone else had deployed which was Bluetooth, and without the fallback position of making that work. That's the curious thing with Android, they did in many ways engage in the wider world hoping for a bit more wider co-operation (at least within the OHA), but you'd be hard pressed to find an area of the OS anyone other than Google had a positive impact on, but there is plenty of the reverse going on.
noisy_boy 12y ago
This ongoing attempt by Apple to hobble iOS is why I've decided that my next device would be an Android device. I'll have access to filesystem, I can run an SSH server on my phone which means I basically can do pretty much everything I need to spend less time "managing" my content without having to buy into an whole eco system of Apple devices. E.g. i can push new music files automatically to my phone via a script), access newer photos/videos taken on my phone on various trips and sync them back to my computer (without having to rely on cloud etc).

79 points by derwildemomo 12y ago

zurn 12y ago

WebRTC works pretty well on Android. But apparently Apple has kept it out of iOS Safari and doesn't allow other browsers to implement it?

derwildemomo 12y ago
Forgot about that one, thank you. Another one on the list, unfortunately.
higherpurpose 12y ago
Apple needs to allow serious browser competition on iOS. But of course they won't until more developers and users start asking them for it.
jmspring 12y ago
WebRTC does not currently exist on the desktop Safari either. I'm sure if a 3rd party wanted to implement WebRTC in a browser for iOS, they are probably welcome to do so.
foo2312 12y ago
As far as I am aware, Apple does not seem to have a policy preventing this type of work. There was a fairly well-publicized release of an experimental codebase from Ericsson: http://labs.ericsson.com/apps/bowser http://labs.ericsson.com/apps/bowser, which has since been retired (although as far as I know, not due to any conflict with Apple): http://labs.ericsson.com/blog/retiring-bowser http://labs.ericsson.com/blog/retiring-bowser.
nl 12y ago
That's a different layer - it runs on top of an already established network. This is about establishing some kind of connection. WebRTC also requires a central server for discovery (typically overy HTTP I think?). It maybe possible to replace that with Bluetooth LE, but then the WebRTC connections to each other will need to run over an TCP network.

habosa 12y ago

The popular game app "Spaceteam" does an amazing job of real time p2p communication between iOS and Android devices. It would be great if the developer could release some sort of open-source library for those connections so other people could build on his/her work.

morsch 12y ago
Not via Bluetooth though. Also, mobile hotspot clients (any OS) do not see the host. We failed to play on a recent camping trip.
- lmm 12y ago
  Rather than a mobile hotspot you want to create an ad-hoc wifi network between your devices. I've successfully played that way.
wvenable 12y ago
This really isn't device-to-device communication -- both the iOS and Android devices have to be on the same WiFi network for Spaceteam to work.
- habosa 12y ago
  Only when using cross-platform. Bluetooth works for Android-->Android or iOS-->iOS.
zbowling 12y ago
Hey! That was our doing. :-) Apportable (Winter 2011) worked to bring Spaceteam over to Android and we had to face this problem head on. Bluetooth LE does work for Android <-> iOS but it requires a really new Android device with the right hardware, otherwise the safest option is Wifi. A lot of code involved. We open sourced the code we wrote to run on the Android side: https://github.com/apportable/Bluetooth https://github.com/apportable/Bluetooth
- habosa 12y ago

fidotron 12y ago

This is the main area where I suspect Google's greater reliance on clouds leads them to castrate their operating systems. Last time I checked Chrome OS still didn't even support Bonjour mDNS. (Still the case, and it's related to this first mentioned in 2009: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13573 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=13573 ) The Android stuff alone is an inconsistent trainwreck (because not all hardware supports all options on a given version of the OS either) and it took them a long time to get there. Apple really have been leading the sane local peer-to-peer world ever since Bonjour first appeared, and the new developments have just extended their lead. It will be interesting to see just how this difference affects the nature of their respective wearables.

drivebyubnt 12y ago
FWIW Java based mDNS libraries works fine on stock Android. I believe mDNS is the standards body name for the protocol that Bonjour uses.
- dottrap 12y ago
  Zeroconf (Zero Configuration Networking) is the standards body name. mDNS is one of 3 components that Zeroconf uses, the other two being local link addressing and DNS service discovery. jMDNS works fine on Android but it is a 3rd party dependency you have to add and it is slow to start up. Android 4.1 started shipping their own native Zeroconf implementation (Network Service Discovery) which kind of works, but is buggy as hell.
- fidotron 12y ago
  Yeah, kind of. Now that they've rolled some of it into the OS things are better, but in the bad days before 4.0 you'd get devices hard wired to discard any broadcast or multicast packets while the screen was off and so on. Manufacturers had a distinct tendency to mess with anything not explicitly used in the OS. Google aren't helped when people like Samsung decide to redefine the bump to file transfer to mean NFC to initiate WiFi Direct, not what everyone else had deployed which was Bluetooth, and without the fallback position of making that work. That's the curious thing with Android, they did in many ways engage in the wider world hoping for a bit more wider co-operation (at least within the OHA), but you'd be hard pressed to find an area of the OS anyone other than Google had a positive impact on, but there is plenty of the reverse going on.

noisy_boy 12y ago

This ongoing attempt by Apple to hobble iOS is why I've decided that my next device would be an Android device. I'll have access to filesystem, I can run an SSH server on my phone which means I basically can do pretty much everything I need to spend less time "managing" my content without having to buy into an whole eco system of Apple devices. E.g. i can push new music files automatically to my phone via a script), access newer photos/videos taken on my phone on various trips and sync them back to my computer (without having to rely on cloud etc).