8 ms·

TeX reminds me of GCC — huge, complex codebase, unhelpful error messages, and designed to just be a compiler/typesetter. I wish someone were to rewrite an LLVM-

TeX reminds me of GCC — huge, complex codebase, unhelpful error messages, and designed to just be a compiler/typesetter. I wish someone were to rewrite an LLVM-like TeX system. Simpler code, could be used to write libraries to do live syntax checking and formatting, beautiful error messages, and fast typesetting times.

kumbasha 12y ago
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKaI78K_rgA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKaI78K_rgA
kachnuv_ocasek 12y ago
GCC is on par with LLVM performance-wise, and, as of the latest version, has those "beautiful" messages as well.
- coherentpony 12y ago
  Do you have a reference for that statement? Does LLVM support the C++11 standard? And does it support OpenMP?
  - conradev 12y ago
    http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html http://clang-omp.github.io/#status http://clang-omp.github.io/#status
  - LeonidasXIV 12y ago
    About the error messages in GCC 4.8: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/ClangDiagnosticsComparison http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/ClangDiagnosticsComparison
cliveowen 12y ago
Actually the error messages are really helpful, I wish compilers were that good.
- alipang 12y ago
  BADNESS 10000
- unfamiliar 12y ago
  I just got an error message pointing to an aux file, which was automatically generated and had nothing to do with me. Yeah, the error messages are super helpful.
  - godbyk 12y ago
    In my experience the TeX engine has decent error messages. The LaTeX set of macros, however, do not. What happens is that LaTeX doesn't do as much error checkout at its higher level of abstraction and leaves TeX to sort it out. TeX's errors are correct but tend to refer to the lowest level of code—the least helpful pointer for the reader. It's akin to the error messages you see from a C++ compiler about template functions.
noahl 12y ago
I've been wanting to look at TeXmacs for a while now. It seems to have similar typesetting abilities as TeX, but the ability to edit the document live and connect with a running program. I haven't had the time to look into it, though, so it may not be what you want.
- symmetricsaurus 12y ago
  Texmacs is quite nice actually. If you know emacs shortcuts and are willing to learn a few new Texmacs specific ones it is the fastest way I know to write mixed text and maths. When I tried last time a few years ago it was not as complete as LaTeX is, atleast for me, who is much more proficient in LaTex.
- edwintorok 12y ago
  TeXworks is a simple GUI for editing *TeX, and watching the output at the same time: https://www.tug.org/texworks/ https://www.tug.org/texworks/ You can also click somewhere in the PDF view and 'jump to source'. Used it a few times when polishing/debugging a LaTeX document, I generally don't use it for writing though. (I prefer to do all my writing in Vim).
  - noahl 12y ago
    I've seen TeXworks, but it's different than TeXmacs, which is real WYSIWYG editing with a TeX-like layout engine. TeXworks is still very cool, though.
    - jimhefferon 12y ago
      > real WYSIWYG editing That's an argument against using it, it seems to me. Having the words jump around as you type them is maddening.
nabla9 12y ago
"When 36 years old your code is, look as good it will not ehh."
_delirium 12y ago
I don't know of any complete rewrites, but there are some cleanup/extension efforts underway, which are increasingly displacing "classic" TeX. The pdfTeX / LuaTeX line is probably the most actively developed codebase. It's 100% C now (no more Pascal or WEB code), and supports modern things like UTF-8 input, the lack of which was one of the more frequent pain points of trying to use classic TeX today.
- NotOscarWilde 12y ago
  > and supports modern things like UTF-8 input Speaking of plain TeX: Yes, they support UTF-8; that is, support it with a command-line switch which is a bit tricky to use. It's not like TeX can detect the encoding of your file and set things up automatically.
Jormundir 12y ago
Lets see you do it.
userbinator 12y ago
The core of TeX (written by Knuth) is actually quite small for what it does - approximately 24kLOC when translated from Pascal to C. The "TeX systems" that are around today are huge because of all the other things that dwarf it, and honestly I don't think everyone needs all or even a majority of that - I know that the parts of TeX that I use to turn a .tex into a .ps can fit on a single floppy. There's also the fact that LaTeX is often bundled in, and that is another "monstrosity" in itself. (I exclusively use plain TeX, so I have no need for that either.)

kumbasha 12y ago

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKaI78K_rgA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKaI78K_rgA

kachnuv_ocasek 12y ago

GCC is on par with LLVM performance-wise, and, as of the latest version, has those "beautiful" messages as well.

coherentpony 12y ago
Do you have a reference for that statement? Does LLVM support the C++11 standard? And does it support OpenMP?
- conradev 12y ago
  http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html http://clang-omp.github.io/#status http://clang-omp.github.io/#status
- LeonidasXIV 12y ago
  About the error messages in GCC 4.8: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/ClangDiagnosticsComparison http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/ClangDiagnosticsComparison

cliveowen 12y ago

Actually the error messages are really helpful, I wish compilers were that good.

alipang 12y ago
BADNESS 10000
unfamiliar 12y ago
I just got an error message pointing to an aux file, which was automatically generated and had nothing to do with me. Yeah, the error messages are super helpful.
- godbyk 12y ago
  In my experience the TeX engine has decent error messages. The LaTeX set of macros, however, do not. What happens is that LaTeX doesn't do as much error checkout at its higher level of abstraction and leaves TeX to sort it out. TeX's errors are correct but tend to refer to the lowest level of code—the least helpful pointer for the reader. It's akin to the error messages you see from a C++ compiler about template functions.

noahl 12y ago

I've been wanting to look at TeXmacs for a while now. It seems to have similar typesetting abilities as TeX, but the ability to edit the document live and connect with a running program. I haven't had the time to look into it, though, so it may not be what you want.

symmetricsaurus 12y ago
Texmacs is quite nice actually. If you know emacs shortcuts and are willing to learn a few new Texmacs specific ones it is the fastest way I know to write mixed text and maths. When I tried last time a few years ago it was not as complete as LaTeX is, atleast for me, who is much more proficient in LaTex.
edwintorok 12y ago
TeXworks is a simple GUI for editing *TeX, and watching the output at the same time: https://www.tug.org/texworks/ https://www.tug.org/texworks/ You can also click somewhere in the PDF view and 'jump to source'. Used it a few times when polishing/debugging a LaTeX document, I generally don't use it for writing though. (I prefer to do all my writing in Vim).
- noahl 12y ago
  I've seen TeXworks, but it's different than TeXmacs, which is real WYSIWYG editing with a TeX-like layout engine. TeXworks is still very cool, though.
  - jimhefferon 12y ago
    > real WYSIWYG editing That's an argument against using it, it seems to me. Having the words jump around as you type them is maddening.

nabla9 12y ago

"When 36 years old your code is, look as good it will not ehh."

_delirium 12y ago

I don't know of any complete rewrites, but there are some cleanup/extension efforts underway, which are increasingly displacing "classic" TeX. The pdfTeX / LuaTeX line is probably the most actively developed codebase. It's 100% C now (no more Pascal or WEB code), and supports modern things like UTF-8 input, the lack of which was one of the more frequent pain points of trying to use classic TeX today.

NotOscarWilde 12y ago
> and supports modern things like UTF-8 input Speaking of plain TeX: Yes, they support UTF-8; that is, support it with a command-line switch which is a bit tricky to use. It's not like TeX can detect the encoding of your file and set things up automatically.

Jormundir 12y ago

Lets see you do it.

userbinator 12y ago

The core of TeX (written by Knuth) is actually quite small for what it does - approximately 24kLOC when translated from Pascal to C. The "TeX systems" that are around today are huge because of all the other things that dwarf it, and honestly I don't think everyone needs all or even a majority of that - I know that the parts of TeX that I use to turn a .tex into a .ps can fit on a single floppy. There's also the fact that LaTeX is often bundled in, and that is another "monstrosity" in itself. (I exclusively use plain TeX, so I have no need for that either.)