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This feels like a very "American" article [1], in the way it frames the discussion. The intro suggests the author has a policy of not drinking at all (or only e

by mjn 12y ago

This feels like a very "American" article [1], in the way it frames the discussion. The intro suggests the author has a policy of not drinking at all (or only every few months), but most of the bullet points only apply to why you shouldn't binge-drink. I did not find anything in this article that applied to normal drinking. If you drink a glass of wine with lunch, and one or two with dinner, as a typical southern European, you should not have a hangover or other such issues, unless you have a relatively rare (for those of European descent, at least) sensitivity to alcohol. I'm slightly tempted to write a follow-up article with, "why I don't participate in bro culture", based on this article's pervasive reference to clubs, "certain intoxicants", and other such questionable things the author appears to indulge in, but which seem stupid and harmful to me. [1] To be fair, the U.S. may have gotten its drunkards-vs-teetotallers attitude in part from Europe. Sweden in particular, and the UK some centuries earlier, used to have a very similar divide.

RogerL 12y ago
I was about to post the same thing. A glass of wine with dinner, for example, can enormously enhance the experience without any of the downsides that he mentions. Not that I care if people don't drink, but several of the arguments were pretty spurious.
- lucaspiller 12y ago
  > A glass of wine with dinner, for example, can enormously enhance the experience Can you explain how exactly? Is it just greater social ease as the author suggests in the article? I'm intrigued, I don't drink wine and hardly ever have a beer while eating.
  - funkyy 12y ago
    Its a southern European culture - wine goes well with some tastes and since wine vapours a lot it delivers taste also to your nose. Beer is usually used only with fatty/heavy foods as it helps to dissolve them and stimulates stomach to work harder (that would be mainly German/Irish kitchen).
- burntroots 12y ago
  for you. Not everybody reacts to alcohol the same way.
kylec 12y ago
The author's not telling you not to drink, he's just explaining why he doesn't. It's OK for some of those reasons to be against specific kinds of drinking he doesn't want to engage in.
- mjn 12y ago
  None of his points explain even from a personal perspective why he doesn't drink, though. Which of his bullet points explain the pros and cons of wine with dinner vs. not having wine with dinner?
  - jsaxton86 12y ago
    "It is expensive." is definitely relevant. If my fiancee and I go out for dinner and we each have a couple of drinks, the tab at least doubles.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - mjn 12y ago
      This is also my argument (100% serious) against restaurant meals: if I go out for a few drinks and get hungry enough to order some food, the tab at least doubles, sometimes triples (in Copenhagen, a burger costs as much as 3-5 beers). That's why it's important to learn to cook, so you can eat before going out and save significant money.
  - kylec 12y ago
    He's not making an argument about nuanced tradeoffs, though. He's saying that he gets no benefit ("It makes me feel bleh", "Alcohol does not increase my enjoyment of activities") and that there are some drawbacks for him ("It dumbs you down", "It's expensive"). You might have different personal experiences with alcohol, but you can't deny the author his.
    - mjn 12y ago
bicx 12y ago
Fortunately, there's more of a casual drinking culture brewing (no pun intended) in the U.S. based around craft beer and other alcoholic beverages. I probably have a beer a day on average, but I make a point to never get drunk.
joshlegs 12y ago
This feels like a very "European" comment. Really the only thing you could nitpick is in points 7 and 9, because that's where he makes generalizations about alcohol's effects on others. Near as I can tell, the rest of the list is primarily about how it affects him as an individual. As far as alcohol being a depressant, that's pretty well established by now. I'm just not sure what exactly screams "American" about this article to you. It seems you're generalizing a lot of things about Americans just as you claim he's generalizing a lot of things about alcohol. Just not really sure what point you're getting at.
- mjn 12y ago
  Here are the points that to me only seem to apply to people irresponsibly binge-drinking: #3 "expensive": I have never spent $100 when out drinking. You have to drink like a dozen beers to hit that, even if they're fancy craft beers. If you're really spending $100 on drinking, the issue is something other than drinking per se (either very expensive tastes in drinks, or binge drinking). #4, "You slow down, you slur, you say dumb shit": If you drink a lot, sure, but most people do not slur their speech or act noticeably different after one or two beers. #5: explicitly about "getting drunk", not about drinking alcohol in moderation #7: drinking alcohol in moderation has generally been shown to be healthy, not unhealthy. #8: "The day after is not worth it". Again, this only applies to binge-drinkers, not normal drinkers. You do not get a hangover from moderate alcohol consumption. #9: "It turns some people into monsters", also something that only applies to excessive drinking. Having major personality changes from one or two drinks (vs. 6+) is quite rare. My impression is that what the author really wants to explain is why he no longer engages in dozen-drink outings at a club, that result in a drunken stupor, large monetary expenditures, possibly unpleasant or regrettable social interactions, and day-or-more recovery. But most people who drink alcohol do not engage in that specific kind of drinking.
  - joshlegs 12y ago
    I just still dont know. my girlfriend likes to have a few drinks when we go out. I'll drink with her so she doesnt feel awkward being the only one drinking. but a few things just to rebut your points. #3 -- i hate beer, so the only real way i'll drink is if it's a cocktail. these typically range from $8-$12. I hate paying that much for a drink, so even 1 is expensive. #4 -- i totally start slurring after 2 drinks. this is highly subjective #5 -- maybe i can grant you that, in that it's not about drinking in moderation. #7 -- i'm 50/50 on this. Beer is notorious for putting pounds on a person. It also does kill your liver. However, there are definitely other benefits associated with, say, a glass of wine with dinner. So I could kind of go either way on this #8 -- i feel bad even after 2 or 3 drinks. For me, it primarily manifests itself in an awful night of sleep. But again, this is something that's very subjective, and it's not like he's putting a blanket criticism on drinking because it makes everyone feel bad the day after. #9 -- i probably am with you on that too. because it turns other people into monsters if they drink too much doesnt mean the author shouldnt drink. but i can also understand his reasoning in that he wants to stay away from it because he doesnt want to allow himself the opportunity to turn into a monster, based on his observational evidence of how it affects others. so if you look at the points that way, most of them still turn out to be reflections on how alcohol affects him personally, with those 2.5 exceptions.
kwyjibo1230 12y ago
He also mentions health as a concern but light to moderate drinkers (1-3 drinks per day) are generally healthier than teetotalers, who are then generally healthier than heavy drinkers (>3 drinks per day). A drink of alcohol per day is shown to reduce the risk of heart disease significantly. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/026.html http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/026.html
funkyy 12y ago
Everything in life is a skill - even drinking alcohol. While most of people think that drinking alcohol is only pleasure it can be amazing deal breaker and social skill needed in some situation. I drink usually 3-4 times a week (not to get drunk, but few glasses of coke and whiskey or vodka). Does it make me dumber? Yes, but it also helps me to focus on just one task. My productivity jumps 3-4 times for that time. Does it leave me hangover? No. There is a way to drink alcohol and never have hangover (in last year I had hangover just once). Do I get drunk? No. There is a way to drink alcohol and stay in sweet spot. Mixing alcohol like a teenager dosent help. Do I lose my social skills? No. Look up - if you know what you are doing you are the only one at the party that is semi-sober while drinking - so all the stories belong to you. I remember back in the days when drinking didn't equal to alcoholism (hello Mr. Churchill), smoking cigarettes did not equal to cancer (hello anyone 50 years ago), and well behaving while intoxicated was an important indicator of persons self-control. I rather to do a business with person that can stay cool after alcohol than with one that dont drink/behave like idiot after few drinks. Remember beginnings of some alcohol fuelled startups (FB, Google etc...). Thats the real character revealer in our "FB profile page" world.
kelnos 12y ago
I (an American) drink fairly often, and occasionally to excess. I have a fairly high tolerance, so usually I won't notice much of an effect until I'm drinking at a rate of greater than 2 drinks per hour, or, if I'm drinking slower than that, until I've had at 7+ drinks. So it's not unusual for me to go out with some friends, have 5-7 drinks, and not "get drunk", only developing a slight buzz at most. As long as I'm matching each alcoholic drink with 1-1.5 glasses of water, I feel perfectly normal the next day. (I have noticed that, as I get older, I need to hydrate more and more to avoid a headache afterward. Annoying.) On other occasions, I do enjoy drinking to a point where I'd consider myself very drunk. It's fun. Frankly, I'm mildly annoyed at the suggestion that the European method of drinking is somehow superior. It's just different. Possibly healthier, possibly safer, but I'll be damned if I let other people tell me how to enjoy myself[1]. I'm slightly tempted to write a follow-up article with, "why I don't participate in bro culture", based on this article's pervasive reference to clubs, "certain intoxicants", and other such questionable things the author appears to indulge in, but which seem stupid and harmful to me. So wait, indulging in intoxicants other than alcohol makes you a "bro"? Damn, dude, check your holier-than-thou perceptions at the door and let people do their thing. I don't personally do any of the harder stuff, but I'm not going to condemn others if that makes them happy. I think you also have a very narrow-minded view as to what a "club" is and what types of people tend to frequent them (hint: the answer is "all different kinds"). [1] As long as my enjoyment isn't harming anyone else, anyway.
- lyudmil 12y ago
  I think the OP saw a lack of nuance in the argument and explaining was speculating about where that comes from. I don't think anyone suggested that the European way is better. In fact, your reading of the OP's argument is very "American" because you talk about "European" as if it's a thing. Drinking culture in Southern Europe is very different from drinking culture in Central Europe. Eastern Europe is another thing altogether. Hell, even the way Spaniards drink is vastly different from the way Italians do. Also, in general Europeans get really drunk occasionally, just like you do, so even if there was a "European" way of drinking it would include your behavior. Basically, I think you're reading into it too much. I don't think the OP implied what you think he or she did. >> I have noticed that, as I get older, I need to hydrate more and more to avoid a headache afterward. Annoying. Drinking water only helps relieve one of the causes of a hangover (dehydration). There are many many others, so it may not be the amount of water you need to change, but your choice of drinks (clear, distilled beverages generally contain less congeners, which are one of the main causes of hangovers).

by mjn 12y ago

RogerL 12y ago

I was about to post the same thing. A glass of wine with dinner, for example, can enormously enhance the experience without any of the downsides that he mentions. Not that I care if people don't drink, but several of the arguments were pretty spurious.

lucaspiller 12y ago
> A glass of wine with dinner, for example, can enormously enhance the experience Can you explain how exactly? Is it just greater social ease as the author suggests in the article? I'm intrigued, I don't drink wine and hardly ever have a beer while eating.
- funkyy 12y ago
  Its a southern European culture - wine goes well with some tastes and since wine vapours a lot it delivers taste also to your nose. Beer is usually used only with fatty/heavy foods as it helps to dissolve them and stimulates stomach to work harder (that would be mainly German/Irish kitchen).
burntroots 12y ago
for you. Not everybody reacts to alcohol the same way.

kylec 12y ago

The author's not telling you not to drink, he's just explaining why he doesn't. It's OK for some of those reasons to be against specific kinds of drinking he doesn't want to engage in.

mjn 12y ago
None of his points explain even from a personal perspective why he doesn't drink, though. Which of his bullet points explain the pros and cons of wine with dinner vs. not having wine with dinner?
- jsaxton86 12y ago
  "It is expensive." is definitely relevant. If my fiancee and I go out for dinner and we each have a couple of drinks, the tab at least doubles.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - mjn 12y ago
    This is also my argument (100% serious) against restaurant meals: if I go out for a few drinks and get hungry enough to order some food, the tab at least doubles, sometimes triples (in Copenhagen, a burger costs as much as 3-5 beers). That's why it's important to learn to cook, so you can eat before going out and save significant money.
- kylec 12y ago
  He's not making an argument about nuanced tradeoffs, though. He's saying that he gets no benefit ("It makes me feel bleh", "Alcohol does not increase my enjoyment of activities") and that there are some drawbacks for him ("It dumbs you down", "It's expensive"). You might have different personal experiences with alcohol, but you can't deny the author his.
  - mjn 12y ago

bicx 12y ago

Fortunately, there's more of a casual drinking culture brewing (no pun intended) in the U.S. based around craft beer and other alcoholic beverages. I probably have a beer a day on average, but I make a point to never get drunk.

joshlegs 12y ago

This feels like a very "European" comment. Really the only thing you could nitpick is in points 7 and 9, because that's where he makes generalizations about alcohol's effects on others. Near as I can tell, the rest of the list is primarily about how it affects him as an individual. As far as alcohol being a depressant, that's pretty well established by now. I'm just not sure what exactly screams "American" about this article to you. It seems you're generalizing a lot of things about Americans just as you claim he's generalizing a lot of things about alcohol. Just not really sure what point you're getting at.

mjn 12y ago
Here are the points that to me only seem to apply to people irresponsibly binge-drinking: #3 "expensive": I have never spent $100 when out drinking. You have to drink like a dozen beers to hit that, even if they're fancy craft beers. If you're really spending $100 on drinking, the issue is something other than drinking per se (either very expensive tastes in drinks, or binge drinking). #4, "You slow down, you slur, you say dumb shit": If you drink a lot, sure, but most people do not slur their speech or act noticeably different after one or two beers. #5: explicitly about "getting drunk", not about drinking alcohol in moderation #7: drinking alcohol in moderation has generally been shown to be healthy, not unhealthy. #8: "The day after is not worth it". Again, this only applies to binge-drinkers, not normal drinkers. You do not get a hangover from moderate alcohol consumption. #9: "It turns some people into monsters", also something that only applies to excessive drinking. Having major personality changes from one or two drinks (vs. 6+) is quite rare. My impression is that what the author really wants to explain is why he no longer engages in dozen-drink outings at a club, that result in a drunken stupor, large monetary expenditures, possibly unpleasant or regrettable social interactions, and day-or-more recovery. But most people who drink alcohol do not engage in that specific kind of drinking.
- joshlegs 12y ago
  I just still dont know. my girlfriend likes to have a few drinks when we go out. I'll drink with her so she doesnt feel awkward being the only one drinking. but a few things just to rebut your points. #3 -- i hate beer, so the only real way i'll drink is if it's a cocktail. these typically range from $8-$12. I hate paying that much for a drink, so even 1 is expensive. #4 -- i totally start slurring after 2 drinks. this is highly subjective #5 -- maybe i can grant you that, in that it's not about drinking in moderation. #7 -- i'm 50/50 on this. Beer is notorious for putting pounds on a person. It also does kill your liver. However, there are definitely other benefits associated with, say, a glass of wine with dinner. So I could kind of go either way on this #8 -- i feel bad even after 2 or 3 drinks. For me, it primarily manifests itself in an awful night of sleep. But again, this is something that's very subjective, and it's not like he's putting a blanket criticism on drinking because it makes everyone feel bad the day after. #9 -- i probably am with you on that too. because it turns other people into monsters if they drink too much doesnt mean the author shouldnt drink. but i can also understand his reasoning in that he wants to stay away from it because he doesnt want to allow himself the opportunity to turn into a monster, based on his observational evidence of how it affects others. so if you look at the points that way, most of them still turn out to be reflections on how alcohol affects him personally, with those 2.5 exceptions.

kwyjibo1230 12y ago

He also mentions health as a concern but light to moderate drinkers (1-3 drinks per day) are generally healthier than teetotalers, who are then generally healthier than heavy drinkers (>3 drinks per day). A drink of alcohol per day is shown to reduce the risk of heart disease significantly. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/026.html http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/026.html

funkyy 12y ago

Everything in life is a skill - even drinking alcohol. While most of people think that drinking alcohol is only pleasure it can be amazing deal breaker and social skill needed in some situation. I drink usually 3-4 times a week (not to get drunk, but few glasses of coke and whiskey or vodka). Does it make me dumber? Yes, but it also helps me to focus on just one task. My productivity jumps 3-4 times for that time. Does it leave me hangover? No. There is a way to drink alcohol and never have hangover (in last year I had hangover just once). Do I get drunk? No. There is a way to drink alcohol and stay in sweet spot. Mixing alcohol like a teenager dosent help. Do I lose my social skills? No. Look up - if you know what you are doing you are the only one at the party that is semi-sober while drinking - so all the stories belong to you. I remember back in the days when drinking didn't equal to alcoholism (hello Mr. Churchill), smoking cigarettes did not equal to cancer (hello anyone 50 years ago), and well behaving while intoxicated was an important indicator of persons self-control. I rather to do a business with person that can stay cool after alcohol than with one that dont drink/behave like idiot after few drinks. Remember beginnings of some alcohol fuelled startups (FB, Google etc...). Thats the real character revealer in our "FB profile page" world.

kelnos 12y ago

I (an American) drink fairly often, and occasionally to excess. I have a fairly high tolerance, so usually I won't notice much of an effect until I'm drinking at a rate of greater than 2 drinks per hour, or, if I'm drinking slower than that, until I've had at 7+ drinks. So it's not unusual for me to go out with some friends, have 5-7 drinks, and not "get drunk", only developing a slight buzz at most. As long as I'm matching each alcoholic drink with 1-1.5 glasses of water, I feel perfectly normal the next day. (I have noticed that, as I get older, I need to hydrate more and more to avoid a headache afterward. Annoying.) On other occasions, I do enjoy drinking to a point where I'd consider myself very drunk. It's fun. Frankly, I'm mildly annoyed at the suggestion that the European method of drinking is somehow superior. It's just different. Possibly healthier, possibly safer, but I'll be damned if I let other people tell me how to enjoy myself[1]. I'm slightly tempted to write a follow-up article with, "why I don't participate in bro culture", based on this article's pervasive reference to clubs, "certain intoxicants", and other such questionable things the author appears to indulge in, but which seem stupid and harmful to me. So wait, indulging in intoxicants other than alcohol makes you a "bro"? Damn, dude, check your holier-than-thou perceptions at the door and let people do their thing. I don't personally do any of the harder stuff, but I'm not going to condemn others if that makes them happy. I think you also have a very narrow-minded view as to what a "club" is and what types of people tend to frequent them (hint: the answer is "all different kinds"). [1] As long as my enjoyment isn't harming anyone else, anyway.

lyudmil 12y ago
I think the OP saw a lack of nuance in the argument and explaining was speculating about where that comes from. I don't think anyone suggested that the European way is better. In fact, your reading of the OP's argument is very "American" because you talk about "European" as if it's a thing. Drinking culture in Southern Europe is very different from drinking culture in Central Europe. Eastern Europe is another thing altogether. Hell, even the way Spaniards drink is vastly different from the way Italians do. Also, in general Europeans get really drunk occasionally, just like you do, so even if there was a "European" way of drinking it would include your behavior. Basically, I think you're reading into it too much. I don't think the OP implied what you think he or she did. >> I have noticed that, as I get older, I need to hydrate more and more to avoid a headache afterward. Annoying. Drinking water only helps relieve one of the causes of a hangover (dehydration). There are many many others, so it may not be the amount of water you need to change, but your choice of drinks (clear, distilled beverages generally contain less congeners, which are one of the main causes of hangovers).