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Marcotte's study says income increases by 20% after a suicide attempt but his support for this figure is the following: "Once you attempt suicide you suddenly

by wyw 17y ago

Marcotte's study says income increases by 20% after a suicide attempt but his support for this figure is the following: "Once you attempt suicide you suddenly have access to lots of resources: medical care, psychiatric attention, familial love and concern that were previously expensive or unavailable." Last time I checked, that's not how we define income unless he's saying that this additional support is what's driving a concomitant rise in income. This finding is the opposite of what I would have expected - namely that the more serious the encounter with death, the less seriously the would-be suicidist would subsequently treat the pursuit of material success. Unfortunately the study seems to be behind a paywall so we can't figure out whether methodological flaws have produced these results.

cperciva 17y ago
The research paper is available via the author's website: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~marcotte/economics%20of%20suicide.pdf http://userpages.umbc.edu/~marcotte/economics%20of%20suicide...
- bd 17y ago
  A good find. There is much more info in the paper: 1. People who contemplated suicide actually started with 21% less income than comparable peers. 2. Income increase effect (23-44%) significantly decreases with time - it goes to zero in 12-14 years. 3. The effect is the strongest for young while males. So it seems after suicide attempt, you just get to income level of non-suicidal peers (or slightly above for more serious attempts), and this effects disappears after some time. Also, it seems to me like the reason for income increase effect could be not so much "extra resources and care", but something more simple: people who got farther in executing their suicide plans are more driven/goal oriented/resolute, thus more likely to succeed financially. There is probably a similar effect for "people who contemplated running marathon" vs. "people who ran marathon".
  - jodrellblank 17y ago
    Or perhaps people who were building up to a suicide attempt for a while, then made one, discovered "that wasn't so hard" and became more willing to tackle things they previously dismissed as hard. Or maybe they internalised the idea "may as well try this difficult thing, I've tried suicide before so I can do it again" as a kind of backup/escape option that feels more real and available.
    - depressed-anon 17y ago
      As someone who has come extremely close to ending my own life on several occasions (and have since begun treatment), I am inclined to believe that the mentioned "extra resources and care" are of significant impact. Mental illness was and (albeit to a lesser degree) is a severe drain on my energy and productivity; I believe that for many this may account for the reduced income levels relative to "comparable peers". Psychiatric care coming after an attempt may close this gap in productivity, allowing for increased income. Of course, I speak only of my own experience and cannot of others'. It may be enlightening to compare changes in income based on the presumed basis for the attempt or ideation (i.e. mental illness, economic circumstances, or familial / social factors). I believe it to be especially important to study those suffering from mental illness separately, as illness can beget thought processes severely lacking in logic and rationality; an economic model assumes a level of rationality in the decision-making process that may not necessarily be present.
asimjalis 17y ago
"This finding is the opposite of what I would have expected - namely that the more serious the encounter with death, the less seriously the would-be suicidist would subsequently treat the pursuit of material success." Or it could be the opposite. Once the person sees material success as just a game he might be able to detach from it and play it more effectively.
timwiseman 17y ago
Last time I checked, that's not how we define income unless he's saying that this additional support is what's driving a concomitant rise in income. I believe that it is indeed what he is saying, and moreover it makes sense. That help can help them get jobs and resolve problems holding them back that they could not otherwise have resolved. This applies more to the low end of the economic scale than the high end of course, but then the low end statistically has more suicide attempts so would make up the bulk of the relevant population.

by wyw 17y ago

cperciva 17y ago

The research paper is available via the author's website: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~marcotte/economics%20of%20suicide.pdf http://userpages.umbc.edu/~marcotte/economics%20of%20suicide...

bd 17y ago
A good find. There is much more info in the paper: 1. People who contemplated suicide actually started with 21% less income than comparable peers. 2. Income increase effect (23-44%) significantly decreases with time - it goes to zero in 12-14 years. 3. The effect is the strongest for young while males. So it seems after suicide attempt, you just get to income level of non-suicidal peers (or slightly above for more serious attempts), and this effects disappears after some time. Also, it seems to me like the reason for income increase effect could be not so much "extra resources and care", but something more simple: people who got farther in executing their suicide plans are more driven/goal oriented/resolute, thus more likely to succeed financially. There is probably a similar effect for "people who contemplated running marathon" vs. "people who ran marathon".
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  Or perhaps people who were building up to a suicide attempt for a while, then made one, discovered "that wasn't so hard" and became more willing to tackle things they previously dismissed as hard. Or maybe they internalised the idea "may as well try this difficult thing, I've tried suicide before so I can do it again" as a kind of backup/escape option that feels more real and available.
  - depressed-anon 17y ago
    As someone who has come extremely close to ending my own life on several occasions (and have since begun treatment), I am inclined to believe that the mentioned "extra resources and care" are of significant impact. Mental illness was and (albeit to a lesser degree) is a severe drain on my energy and productivity; I believe that for many this may account for the reduced income levels relative to "comparable peers". Psychiatric care coming after an attempt may close this gap in productivity, allowing for increased income. Of course, I speak only of my own experience and cannot of others'. It may be enlightening to compare changes in income based on the presumed basis for the attempt or ideation (i.e. mental illness, economic circumstances, or familial / social factors). I believe it to be especially important to study those suffering from mental illness separately, as illness can beget thought processes severely lacking in logic and rationality; an economic model assumes a level of rationality in the decision-making process that may not necessarily be present.

asimjalis 17y ago

"This finding is the opposite of what I would have expected - namely that the more serious the encounter with death, the less seriously the would-be suicidist would subsequently treat the pursuit of material success." Or it could be the opposite. Once the person sees material success as just a game he might be able to detach from it and play it more effectively.

timwiseman 17y ago

Last time I checked, that's not how we define income unless he's saying that this additional support is what's driving a concomitant rise in income. I believe that it is indeed what he is saying, and moreover it makes sense. That help can help them get jobs and resolve problems holding them back that they could not otherwise have resolved. This applies more to the low end of the economic scale than the high end of course, but then the low end statistically has more suicide attempts so would make up the bulk of the relevant population.