5 ms·

At least it isn't retroactive. I suppose workers need to assume any communication system that is provided by the company may be read at any time by management.

by bredren 13y ago

At least it isn't retroactive. I suppose workers need to assume any communication system that is provided by the company may be read at any time by management. The bummer about this is probably many people use private communications expecting them to stay that way. They don't realize companies like Hipchat do not have architecture to support data impermanence or encryption between parties. Nor do these companies go out of their way to highlight this, as people probably did not understand the distinction until recently.

sorahn 13y ago
My friends and I are all using gitter.im to chat now. I just made a private repo on my github account and made them all contributors. Easy peasy. Also then we're already in the right program to paste code bits around when we need.
- samstave 13y ago
  Gitter looks awesome - thanks
eli 13y ago
I get what you're saying, but we use HipChat and it's really obvious that it's "your company's chat system." At least, that's how our employees think of it and how it's marketed. I'd be really surprised if someone thought it was more private than their company email address.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  Indeed. I suspect companies being started now will opt out of logging more and more. My companies employees work from home the majority of the time. We use Hipchat, Trello, Github, Google Drive, and Email for most of our communications. We limit what we log technically (auto deleted after X days email, no logging on most hipchat channels) and by corporate policy. We made an active decision to not store / log Hipchat and Email for a few reasons. We have a specific logged Hipchat channels -- but the rest just keep 75 lines for context and that is it. We also never have logged (nor ever will) the 1 on 1 conversations. Employees in a physical location can go outside and rant about a boss, family issue or other random noise -- and this isn't unhealthy, it is normal. We want to encourage open communication and straightforwardness -- and having communications "forgotten" is an important part of that. It also had additional benefits. 1. It limits the nightmare of discovery if we ever get sued, ever word every employee ever said won't be painstakingly scrutinized. Because we want the legal protection, we clearly spell out this privacy in our corporate documents so it is crystal clear to our employees. 2. It allows stuff to be discussed in context and in time and not being picked apart or misunderstood at a later point by other employees. Which encourages honesty and "getting it done". 3. It creates a "separation" of ephemeral communication that have a lower signal to noise ratio (our Hipchat today had many pictures of new desk layouts)... the important data leaves email or Hipchat and makes its way to Trello, Github or Google Drive.
  - ElDiablo666 13y ago
    Intelligent corporate policy. Oh how I wish such a marriage of pragmatism and respect for privacy were the norm.
  - teacup50 13y ago
    Given how much you rely on SaaS, how do you even know the data is actually gone? Come discovery, I'd expect you'd find its a lot more permanent and exposed than you expect. Worrying about privacy while using SaaS seems to be missing the forest for a single small tree.
    - MetaCosm 13y ago
      Not really, and there is a ton of case law on the topic. The way (civil) discovery works makes the SaaS concern far less of an issue. Civil cases are NOT criminal or national security -- this is not the CIA, it is not a secret court, it is not being tapped... it doesn't even rise to the level of a search warrant. It is up to the party being requested on to produce the documents. So, if we get a discovery request, we have to deliver the documents to fulfill it. For example, we have an automatic email cleanup after 90 days -- both technically, and in policy. This means if we are served with discovery, we can show the policy, show we have taken steps to follow our policy and produce the last 90 days of email. Same goes for Hipchat logs. Now, they could make some crazy play to extend discovery to Google or Atlassian. There are a couple problems with this, the first of which is such an insanely broad request would be flat out denied as fishing. If it wasn't, they would fight it kicking and screaming because they don't want to be involved in every civil case of every one of their of clients. They then would have to actually have the data, which in the no logging situation, hopefully they never had. Discovery is often used as a tool of attrition, to wear down the guy with the smaller wallet -- run lean (by policy and design) and if you ever get a request for discovery -- you can fulfill it quickly and completely.
      - teacup50 13y ago
        > Now, they could make some crazy play to extend discovery to Google or Atlassian ... Discovery is often used as a tool of attrition, to wear down the guy with the smaller wallet Not that crazy. If the data exists, the fact that it's on a cloud vendor's backup tape is your problem. http://searchcio.techtarget.com/report/Avoid-lawsuit-nightmares-New-rules-of-engagement-for-e-discovery http://searchcio.techtarget.com/report/Avoid-lawsuit-nightma...
bdunbar 13y ago
"I suppose workers need to assume" We use hipchat at work. I've been assuming since day one my employer can read everything I write. They are _paying_ for it after all.
- mrjatx 13y ago
  I manage the Hipchat system at my office. You would be amazed at how few features there are on the admin end. I can only change peoples nicknames, room names, and turn on/off guest access. And upload emoticons. That's the only admin action I ever use.
- jessriedel 13y ago
  > They are _paying_ for it after all. They pay for the toilets too, but that doesn't mean they have surveillance access to everything you do in the bathroom. Not saying that there might not be a good argument that they ought to have read access to company chats, but it certainly doesn't follow from the fact that they pay for it.
  - kevinconroy 13y ago
    Most big companies have a policy that any thing created on their computers is their property. Similarly, any information created on systems that they are paying for is theirs. If you were creating business value in the bathroom, then they might argue that they have access to it. If it were for labor and privacy laws, they might even have a legal claim to monitoring your brainstorms in the bathroom.
  - username223 13y ago
    > They pay for the toilets too, but that doesn't mean they have surveillance access to everything you do in the bathroom. It's only a matter of time before they drug test every flush. As Eric Schmidt said, "if you don't want your urine tested, maybe you shouldn't drink water at work."
  - teacup50 13y ago
    Actually, it does follow from the fact they pay for it. If it weren't for explicit rights carved out by privacy laws, they could put cameras in the bathrooms they own.

by bredren 13y ago

sorahn 13y ago

My friends and I are all using gitter.im to chat now. I just made a private repo on my github account and made them all contributors. Easy peasy. Also then we're already in the right program to paste code bits around when we need.

samstave 13y ago
Gitter looks awesome - thanks

eli 13y ago

I get what you're saying, but we use HipChat and it's really obvious that it's "your company's chat system." At least, that's how our employees think of it and how it's marketed. I'd be really surprised if someone thought it was more private than their company email address.

MetaCosm 13y ago
Indeed. I suspect companies being started now will opt out of logging more and more. My companies employees work from home the majority of the time. We use Hipchat, Trello, Github, Google Drive, and Email for most of our communications. We limit what we log technically (auto deleted after X days email, no logging on most hipchat channels) and by corporate policy. We made an active decision to not store / log Hipchat and Email for a few reasons. We have a specific logged Hipchat channels -- but the rest just keep 75 lines for context and that is it. We also never have logged (nor ever will) the 1 on 1 conversations. Employees in a physical location can go outside and rant about a boss, family issue or other random noise -- and this isn't unhealthy, it is normal. We want to encourage open communication and straightforwardness -- and having communications "forgotten" is an important part of that. It also had additional benefits. 1. It limits the nightmare of discovery if we ever get sued, ever word every employee ever said won't be painstakingly scrutinized. Because we want the legal protection, we clearly spell out this privacy in our corporate documents so it is crystal clear to our employees. 2. It allows stuff to be discussed in context and in time and not being picked apart or misunderstood at a later point by other employees. Which encourages honesty and "getting it done". 3. It creates a "separation" of ephemeral communication that have a lower signal to noise ratio (our Hipchat today had many pictures of new desk layouts)... the important data leaves email or Hipchat and makes its way to Trello, Github or Google Drive.
- ElDiablo666 13y ago
  Intelligent corporate policy. Oh how I wish such a marriage of pragmatism and respect for privacy were the norm.
- teacup50 13y ago
  Given how much you rely on SaaS, how do you even know the data is actually gone? Come discovery, I'd expect you'd find its a lot more permanent and exposed than you expect. Worrying about privacy while using SaaS seems to be missing the forest for a single small tree.
  - MetaCosm 13y ago
    Not really, and there is a ton of case law on the topic. The way (civil) discovery works makes the SaaS concern far less of an issue. Civil cases are NOT criminal or national security -- this is not the CIA, it is not a secret court, it is not being tapped... it doesn't even rise to the level of a search warrant. It is up to the party being requested on to produce the documents. So, if we get a discovery request, we have to deliver the documents to fulfill it. For example, we have an automatic email cleanup after 90 days -- both technically, and in policy. This means if we are served with discovery, we can show the policy, show we have taken steps to follow our policy and produce the last 90 days of email. Same goes for Hipchat logs. Now, they could make some crazy play to extend discovery to Google or Atlassian. There are a couple problems with this, the first of which is such an insanely broad request would be flat out denied as fishing. If it wasn't, they would fight it kicking and screaming because they don't want to be involved in every civil case of every one of their of clients. They then would have to actually have the data, which in the no logging situation, hopefully they never had. Discovery is often used as a tool of attrition, to wear down the guy with the smaller wallet -- run lean (by policy and design) and if you ever get a request for discovery -- you can fulfill it quickly and completely.
    - teacup50 13y ago
      > Now, they could make some crazy play to extend discovery to Google or Atlassian ... Discovery is often used as a tool of attrition, to wear down the guy with the smaller wallet Not that crazy. If the data exists, the fact that it's on a cloud vendor's backup tape is your problem. http://searchcio.techtarget.com/report/Avoid-lawsuit-nightmares-New-rules-of-engagement-for-e-discovery http://searchcio.techtarget.com/report/Avoid-lawsuit-nightma...

bdunbar 13y ago

"I suppose workers need to assume" We use hipchat at work. I've been assuming since day one my employer can read everything I write. They are _paying_ for it after all.

mrjatx 13y ago
I manage the Hipchat system at my office. You would be amazed at how few features there are on the admin end. I can only change peoples nicknames, room names, and turn on/off guest access. And upload emoticons. That's the only admin action I ever use.
jessriedel 13y ago
> They are _paying_ for it after all. They pay for the toilets too, but that doesn't mean they have surveillance access to everything you do in the bathroom. Not saying that there might not be a good argument that they ought to have read access to company chats, but it certainly doesn't follow from the fact that they pay for it.
- kevinconroy 13y ago
  Most big companies have a policy that any thing created on their computers is their property. Similarly, any information created on systems that they are paying for is theirs. If you were creating business value in the bathroom, then they might argue that they have access to it. If it were for labor and privacy laws, they might even have a legal claim to monitoring your brainstorms in the bathroom.
- username223 13y ago
  > They pay for the toilets too, but that doesn't mean they have surveillance access to everything you do in the bathroom. It's only a matter of time before they drug test every flush. As Eric Schmidt said, "if you don't want your urine tested, maybe you shouldn't drink water at work."
- teacup50 13y ago
  Actually, it does follow from the fact they pay for it. If it weren't for explicit rights carved out by privacy laws, they could put cameras in the bathrooms they own.