5 ms·

> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite di

by chc 13y ago

> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite direction. Is that as strange as believing that ignoring a problem will make it go away? Because the only alternatives I can see to "Actively try to attract more of the underrepresented group" are "Do nothing about the gender inequality" — which obviously won't fix it — and "Try to push away more of the overrepresented group," which is not what anyone wants. Also, your use of the word "discrimination" here is a bit odd. It seems to imply that men are being excluded from tech by these programs, which is demonstrably not the case.

AnimalMuppet 13y ago
I think that's a false dichotomy. Don't attract discrimination by the opposite discrimination. Attract discrimination primarily by exposing and removing the discrimination. Also (in this example) try to nurture more talented females, growing their skills to the point that they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males.
- chc 13y ago
  I think you need to define what you mean by "discrimination" here, because the obvious definition of "excluding someone based on certain traits" doesn't work here. Men are very much not being excluded from tech fields, nor is anyone attempting to do so, so what do you mean when you say "discrimination"? And how to you "expose and remove the discrimination" in this case?
  - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
    If I'm hiring for a programmer position, and I have a man and a woman who have applied, and I don't hire the man because he's a man, that's discrimination. (Note that this is identical to hiring the woman because I don't have enough women.) What I meant by "expose and remove discrimination" is point out that the team atmosphere is hostile to women, and start disciplining people until that changes. Or, realize that Fred is automatically rating resumes lower if it has a feminine name, and confronting Fred on that. Or... you get the idea. If there's something going on (other than lack of viable candidates) that leads to fewer female programmers, find it out and fix it. The remaining problem is lack of viable candidates. To fix that you have to fix problems outside of your own organization - problems in the education system, in homes, and in society in general. That's a tall order, and it's beyond any one person's power. But still, when you see obstacles that differentially harm females (or blacks, or gays, or whoever), don't just ignore them. Do what you can to expose and try to fix them.
- gordonguthrie 13y ago
  > so they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males Maybe read what you write?
  - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
    Ah, I see what you mean. But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality. So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fix actual discrimination in hiring organizations, and we need to address the supply of qualified candidates. (I was not trying to say that there are currently no qualified female candidates, but I see how that line could be taken that way.)
    - gordonguthrie 13y ago
      Women who come into tech say there is a problem. So there is a problem. Don't start with pipeline, or Aspergers, or toys. Women drop out of CS courses, and leave the industry. Fix the problems we have. But start by ackowledging them.
      - xrctl 13y ago
        It is quite common for Christians in the United States claim that they are oppressed [1]. Shouldn't we try to fix these problems too? http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-persecutioncomplex.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-pers...

by chc 13y ago

AnimalMuppet 13y ago

I think that's a false dichotomy. Don't attract discrimination by the opposite discrimination. Attract discrimination primarily by exposing and removing the discrimination. Also (in this example) try to nurture more talented females, growing their skills to the point that they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males.

chc 13y ago
I think you need to define what you mean by "discrimination" here, because the obvious definition of "excluding someone based on certain traits" doesn't work here. Men are very much not being excluded from tech fields, nor is anyone attempting to do so, so what do you mean when you say "discrimination"? And how to you "expose and remove the discrimination" in this case?
- AnimalMuppet 13y ago
  If I'm hiring for a programmer position, and I have a man and a woman who have applied, and I don't hire the man because he's a man, that's discrimination. (Note that this is identical to hiring the woman because I don't have enough women.) What I meant by "expose and remove discrimination" is point out that the team atmosphere is hostile to women, and start disciplining people until that changes. Or, realize that Fred is automatically rating resumes lower if it has a feminine name, and confronting Fred on that. Or... you get the idea. If there's something going on (other than lack of viable candidates) that leads to fewer female programmers, find it out and fix it. The remaining problem is lack of viable candidates. To fix that you have to fix problems outside of your own organization - problems in the education system, in homes, and in society in general. That's a tall order, and it's beyond any one person's power. But still, when you see obstacles that differentially harm females (or blacks, or gays, or whoever), don't just ignore them. Do what you can to expose and try to fix them.
gordonguthrie 13y ago
> so they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males Maybe read what you write?
- AnimalMuppet 13y ago
  Ah, I see what you mean. But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality. So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fix actual discrimination in hiring organizations, and we need to address the supply of qualified candidates. (I was not trying to say that there are currently no qualified female candidates, but I see how that line could be taken that way.)
  - gordonguthrie 13y ago
    Women who come into tech say there is a problem. So there is a problem. Don't start with pipeline, or Aspergers, or toys. Women drop out of CS courses, and leave the industry. Fix the problems we have. But start by ackowledging them.
    - xrctl 13y ago
      It is quite common for Christians in the United States claim that they are oppressed [1]. Shouldn't we try to fix these problems too? http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-persecutioncomplex.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-pers...