4 ms·

I think educating our young about technology, computer science, the hacker mindset, etc. is a good thing. As a kid, I'd really wished there'd been more mentori

by csense 13y ago

I think educating our young about technology, computer science, the hacker mindset, etc. is a good thing. As a kid, I'd really wished there'd been more mentoring, education, and general support available for young hackers. I would have been seriously pissed about discrimination -- and I daresay rightly so -- if exactly the sorts of things I wanted to participate in had existed, but had been closed to me because I was the wrong race (white) and gender (male). That, in a nutshell, is the problem with the "get girls to code" idea. "Get young people to code" is a better idea, since it's more inclusive. It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite direction.

chc 13y ago
> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite direction. Is that as strange as believing that ignoring a problem will make it go away? Because the only alternatives I can see to "Actively try to attract more of the underrepresented group" are "Do nothing about the gender inequality" — which obviously won't fix it — and "Try to push away more of the overrepresented group," which is not what anyone wants. Also, your use of the word "discrimination" here is a bit odd. It seems to imply that men are being excluded from tech by these programs, which is demonstrably not the case.
- AnimalMuppet 13y ago
  I think that's a false dichotomy. Don't attract discrimination by the opposite discrimination. Attract discrimination primarily by exposing and removing the discrimination. Also (in this example) try to nurture more talented females, growing their skills to the point that they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males.
  - chc 13y ago
    I think you need to define what you mean by "discrimination" here, because the obvious definition of "excluding someone based on certain traits" doesn't work here. Men are very much not being excluded from tech fields, nor is anyone attempting to do so, so what do you mean when you say "discrimination"? And how to you "expose and remove the discrimination" in this case?
    - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
      If I'm hiring for a programmer position, and I have a man and a woman who have applied, and I don't hire the man because he's a man, that's discrimination. (Note that this is identical to hiring the woman because I don't have enough women.) What I meant by "expose and remove discrimination" is point out that the team atmosphere is hostile to women, and start disciplining people until that changes. Or, realize that Fred is automatically rating resumes lower if it has a feminine name, and confronting Fred on that. Or... you get the idea. If there's something going on (other than lack of viable candidates) that leads to fewer female programmers, find it out and fix it. The remaining problem is lack of viable candidates. To fix that you have to fix problems outside of your own organization - problems in the education system, in homes, and in society in general. That's a tall order, and it's beyond any one person's power. But still, when you see obstacles that differentially harm females (or blacks, or gays, or whoever), don't just ignore them. Do what you can to expose and try to fix them.
  - gordonguthrie 13y ago
    > so they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males Maybe read what you write?
    - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
      Ah, I see what you mean. But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality. So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fix actual discrimination in hiring organizations, and we need to address the supply of qualified candidates. (I was not trying to say that there are currently no qualified female candidates, but I see how that line could be taken that way.)
      - gordonguthrie 13y ago
        Women who come into tech say there is a problem. So there is a problem. Don't start with pipeline, or Aspergers, or toys. Women drop out of CS courses, and leave the industry. Fix the problems we have. But start by ackowledging them.
        xrctl 13y ago
        It is quite common for Christians in the United States claim that they are oppressed [1]. Shouldn't we try to fix these problems too? http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-persecutioncomplex.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-pers...
offbrand 13y ago
Obviously, educating all young people about computer science and technology is great. However, providing specialized groups and targeting minorities in the field is a great way to provide those folks with mentors and people they can look up to. It's nice when you can see someone like yourself who made it to the top of their field. Sometimes that is hard to see if you're a minority. I am a female programmer and started really young. In 7th grade, I remember being afraid that people would find out I liked computers and had a website. I was afraid of standing out and being labeled a nerd. I didn't know any girls who liked computers and probably wouldn't have signed up for a program that wasn't specifically for girls. Being a kid in middle school is a tricky time and having a safe environment to learn and be yourself around like minded people can make a big difference. To this day, I still feel quite a bit more comfortable at women coding events than tech talks where I am one of 3 women with 100 guys. I definitely think specialized groups can provide a more conducive place for learning when you're in a minority group. I think calling it discrimination is a bit short sighted.
- danellis 13y ago
  So you're saying the issue is that we need to teach women to be more confident and less worried about what others will think of them?
jt2190 13y ago
> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to > think that the right way to solve discrimination is with > more discrimination, just in the opposite direction. This is a very common and very strange non sequitur, that presumes that the total supply of opportunity is fixed.

by csense 13y ago

chc 13y ago

> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to think that the right way to solve discrimination is with more discrimination, just in the opposite direction. Is that as strange as believing that ignoring a problem will make it go away? Because the only alternatives I can see to "Actively try to attract more of the underrepresented group" are "Do nothing about the gender inequality" — which obviously won't fix it — and "Try to push away more of the overrepresented group," which is not what anyone wants. Also, your use of the word "discrimination" here is a bit odd. It seems to imply that men are being excluded from tech by these programs, which is demonstrably not the case.

AnimalMuppet 13y ago
I think that's a false dichotomy. Don't attract discrimination by the opposite discrimination. Attract discrimination primarily by exposing and removing the discrimination. Also (in this example) try to nurture more talented females, growing their skills to the point that they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males.
- chc 13y ago
  I think you need to define what you mean by "discrimination" here, because the obvious definition of "excluding someone based on certain traits" doesn't work here. Men are very much not being excluded from tech fields, nor is anyone attempting to do so, so what do you mean when you say "discrimination"? And how to you "expose and remove the discrimination" in this case?
  - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
    If I'm hiring for a programmer position, and I have a man and a woman who have applied, and I don't hire the man because he's a man, that's discrimination. (Note that this is identical to hiring the woman because I don't have enough women.) What I meant by "expose and remove discrimination" is point out that the team atmosphere is hostile to women, and start disciplining people until that changes. Or, realize that Fred is automatically rating resumes lower if it has a feminine name, and confronting Fred on that. Or... you get the idea. If there's something going on (other than lack of viable candidates) that leads to fewer female programmers, find it out and fix it. The remaining problem is lack of viable candidates. To fix that you have to fix problems outside of your own organization - problems in the education system, in homes, and in society in general. That's a tall order, and it's beyond any one person's power. But still, when you see obstacles that differentially harm females (or blacks, or gays, or whoever), don't just ignore them. Do what you can to expose and try to fix them.
- gordonguthrie 13y ago
  > so they can be hired even in head-to-head competition with males Maybe read what you write?
  - AnimalMuppet 13y ago
    Ah, I see what you mean. But I did have something of a point too, namely that the lack of females in programming jobs is not just due to discrimination in the hiring organizations. Some of it (not all) is due to there being more male candidates than females who meet the same qualifications. Like it or not, that seems to be the current reality. So what I was trying to say is that we need to address that. We need to fix actual discrimination in hiring organizations, and we need to address the supply of qualified candidates. (I was not trying to say that there are currently no qualified female candidates, but I see how that line could be taken that way.)
    - gordonguthrie 13y ago
      Women who come into tech say there is a problem. So there is a problem. Don't start with pipeline, or Aspergers, or toys. Women drop out of CS courses, and leave the industry. Fix the problems we have. But start by ackowledging them.
      - xrctl 13y ago
        It is quite common for Christians in the United States claim that they are oppressed [1]. Shouldn't we try to fix these problems too? http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-persecutioncomplex.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/christians-pers...

offbrand 13y ago

Obviously, educating all young people about computer science and technology is great. However, providing specialized groups and targeting minorities in the field is a great way to provide those folks with mentors and people they can look up to. It's nice when you can see someone like yourself who made it to the top of their field. Sometimes that is hard to see if you're a minority. I am a female programmer and started really young. In 7th grade, I remember being afraid that people would find out I liked computers and had a website. I was afraid of standing out and being labeled a nerd. I didn't know any girls who liked computers and probably wouldn't have signed up for a program that wasn't specifically for girls. Being a kid in middle school is a tricky time and having a safe environment to learn and be yourself around like minded people can make a big difference. To this day, I still feel quite a bit more comfortable at women coding events than tech talks where I am one of 3 women with 100 guys. I definitely think specialized groups can provide a more conducive place for learning when you're in a minority group. I think calling it discrimination is a bit short sighted.

danellis 13y ago
So you're saying the issue is that we need to teach women to be more confident and less worried about what others will think of them?

jt2190 13y ago

> It's always seemed strange to me how many people seem to > think that the right way to solve discrimination is with > more discrimination, just in the opposite direction. This is a very common and very strange non sequitur, that presumes that the total supply of opportunity is fixed.