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Very smart of Starbucks. I feel that some independent coffee shops are being a little short-sighted. While I tend to favor giving my business to independent sh

by ajg1977 17y ago

Very smart of Starbucks. I feel that some independent coffee shops are being a little short-sighted. While I tend to favor giving my business to independent shops, one of the local ones here in SF has recently cut their free WiFi to 60 mins and blocked all power outlets. I don't really know what that's meant to accomplish, other than making me go elsewhere.

grandalf 17y ago
I agree. It surprises me how customer-unfriendly so many small coffee shops are... I love the ambiance at some of them in SF, but when I really need to be sure I can plug in the laptop and get a comfy chair, Starbucks is usually the safer bet.
- antonovka 17y ago
  You're mistaking customer unfriendly with laptop-unfriendly. Most of the time, I prefer to not feel like I stepped into a laptop-geek-chic convention when I visit a cafe. Sometimes I want a place where I can just use my laptop -- on those occasions, I visit a cafe where I'm welcome to destroy the ambience (such as any exists) by staring glass-eyed into my laptop screen.
  - grandalf 17y ago
    Well, I focused on the laptop factors, but it's really remarkable how much Starbucks' processes have sped up the process of getting coffee... First, someone asks what you want then writes on the cup and passes it to the barista to get started... They can do this a few people ahead and often do, so that by the time you are paying your drink is almost ready. Contrast this to the independent coffee shops which usually have a frazzled hipster avoiding eye contact with all but the first person in the line, and then spending most of his/her time trying to make your drink while the other person working there is chilling out also avoiding eye contact... based on what seems like some arrangement between the workers to take alternate customers. Don't get me wrong, I love coffee shops and often it's worth dealing with a bit of frustration or lack of professionalism... it's just crazy how much Starbucks has innovated in this area... something that probably makes a huge difference in how much coffee gets sold when the line gets long.
    - anigbrowl 17y ago
      Starbucks is a 'coffee shop' in the same way McDonalds is a 'resturant'.
imp 17y ago
The local coffee shop near me puts out power strips to encourage people to bring their laptops and use the unlimited free WiFi. That makes it's easy for me to support them :)
randallsquared 17y ago
It's my experience that this holds true over more kinds of things than coffee shops. Large chain stores do things even when they're a pain from the employees' perspective, but small, independent shops tend to have the owners as workers in the shop, and so they make decisions which sometimes look like the decisions employees would make, rather than those that maximize profit and goodwill. I've found this to be so for specific examples of grocery stores, bookstores, coffee shops, and hobby shops, at least. Sometimes the product is enough better to make up for this, though (especially with coffee).
silencio 17y ago
I think an enforced, strict 60 minute rule is a bit stupid, but they are businesses, and ultimately they wouldn't be continuing to enforce these rules and block the power outlets if it wasn't working to achieve what the business owner wanted - i.e. less of the laptop users who generally use more resources than they end up paying for via purchases of coffee and whatnot. I do think there is a balance somewhere and it takes both the business and the customer to work together to achieve...consider the POV of someone who has to deal with the subset of particularly bad laptop users (e.g. my earlier comment on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=749680 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=749680)...but I do wish more people would understand the economics of running a coffee shop. Starbucks by virtue of being a well-known international chain of coffee shops (and therefore a coffee shop where you know there is some sort of known baseline of drink quality, the menu is more or less the same, and you probably have some sort of drink you order frequently in the right words, etc.) has such an easier time of bringing in customers that indie shops do not have. That same name doesn't just appeal to customers, it also appeals to everyone from lenders to management companies when first opening a business and then to suppliers when continuing to run the business. Starbucks has the resources needed, if the name alone isn't enough, to negotiate better leases and spaces, prices for supplies needed bought in massive bulk quantities...you get the idea. So it's nice Starbucks is reaching out to people like this during this time where many people are struggling, but so are many smaller independent coffee shops, and they don't have all those benefits Starbucks does - and just letting people do whatever they want on the wifi is not (usually) the answer. It's also one thing to restrict wifi to 60 minutes for all customers, and it's another to feel entitled to use free wifi and lots of power for hours on end after buying a small coffee. Both are frustrating. I don't know. I guess it's really up to the owner to figure out what works. As a laptop owner, it never makes me happy to see those types of restrictions, but as someone who has run these businesses before, I'm not happy to see the small but annoying percentage of laptop users who have entitlement issues.
dasil003 17y ago
I think the purpose is to create a community meeting place rather than a laptop farm. So in that sense they do want you to go elsewhere. There's a market for both kinds of coffee shops. I haven't had a problem finding local laptop-friendly coffee shops wherever I live.
anigbrowl 17y ago
Perhaps you're not the sort of customer some businesses want? Not everyone necessarily wants to feel like they're on a university campus at exam time or in the middle of a business park. A bunch of people with laptops is unwelcoming if you enter a coffee shop primed for chatter and flirting (for example).
- rdtsc 17y ago
  It seems, there is a sweet spot of how many people you want in your coffee shop. If it looks empty, potential customers off the street won't go in. That's the herd effect ("if there are so many people there, then it must be good"). However, if the coffee shop is full of people with laptops, not buying any drinks or food, then customers who walk in, hoping to get a coffee and a muffin, will walk out, because there are too many people there, and not enough seats. The goal of the owners is to module the amount of people sitting in the coffee shop. They (the owners) can setup a schedule to simply disallow wi-fi usage and turn the power off on some outlets during certain busy times of day (lunch for ex.) That is a little subversive because it will be perceived as a confrontation. The other way to do it, is to simply ask the patrons to purchase more food and indicate that the coffee shop is struggling financially. Being honest might work a lot better.
  - olliesaunders 17y ago
    That's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof

by ajg1977 17y ago

grandalf 17y ago

I agree. It surprises me how customer-unfriendly so many small coffee shops are... I love the ambiance at some of them in SF, but when I really need to be sure I can plug in the laptop and get a comfy chair, Starbucks is usually the safer bet.

antonovka 17y ago
You're mistaking customer unfriendly with laptop-unfriendly. Most of the time, I prefer to not feel like I stepped into a laptop-geek-chic convention when I visit a cafe. Sometimes I want a place where I can just use my laptop -- on those occasions, I visit a cafe where I'm welcome to destroy the ambience (such as any exists) by staring glass-eyed into my laptop screen.
- grandalf 17y ago
  Well, I focused on the laptop factors, but it's really remarkable how much Starbucks' processes have sped up the process of getting coffee... First, someone asks what you want then writes on the cup and passes it to the barista to get started... They can do this a few people ahead and often do, so that by the time you are paying your drink is almost ready. Contrast this to the independent coffee shops which usually have a frazzled hipster avoiding eye contact with all but the first person in the line, and then spending most of his/her time trying to make your drink while the other person working there is chilling out also avoiding eye contact... based on what seems like some arrangement between the workers to take alternate customers. Don't get me wrong, I love coffee shops and often it's worth dealing with a bit of frustration or lack of professionalism... it's just crazy how much Starbucks has innovated in this area... something that probably makes a huge difference in how much coffee gets sold when the line gets long.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    Starbucks is a 'coffee shop' in the same way McDonalds is a 'resturant'.

imp 17y ago

The local coffee shop near me puts out power strips to encourage people to bring their laptops and use the unlimited free WiFi. That makes it's easy for me to support them :)

randallsquared 17y ago

It's my experience that this holds true over more kinds of things than coffee shops. Large chain stores do things even when they're a pain from the employees' perspective, but small, independent shops tend to have the owners as workers in the shop, and so they make decisions which sometimes look like the decisions employees would make, rather than those that maximize profit and goodwill. I've found this to be so for specific examples of grocery stores, bookstores, coffee shops, and hobby shops, at least. Sometimes the product is enough better to make up for this, though (especially with coffee).

silencio 17y ago

I think an enforced, strict 60 minute rule is a bit stupid, but they are businesses, and ultimately they wouldn't be continuing to enforce these rules and block the power outlets if it wasn't working to achieve what the business owner wanted - i.e. less of the laptop users who generally use more resources than they end up paying for via purchases of coffee and whatnot. I do think there is a balance somewhere and it takes both the business and the customer to work together to achieve...consider the POV of someone who has to deal with the subset of particularly bad laptop users (e.g. my earlier comment on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=749680 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=749680)...but I do wish more people would understand the economics of running a coffee shop. Starbucks by virtue of being a well-known international chain of coffee shops (and therefore a coffee shop where you know there is some sort of known baseline of drink quality, the menu is more or less the same, and you probably have some sort of drink you order frequently in the right words, etc.) has such an easier time of bringing in customers that indie shops do not have. That same name doesn't just appeal to customers, it also appeals to everyone from lenders to management companies when first opening a business and then to suppliers when continuing to run the business. Starbucks has the resources needed, if the name alone isn't enough, to negotiate better leases and spaces, prices for supplies needed bought in massive bulk quantities...you get the idea. So it's nice Starbucks is reaching out to people like this during this time where many people are struggling, but so are many smaller independent coffee shops, and they don't have all those benefits Starbucks does - and just letting people do whatever they want on the wifi is not (usually) the answer. It's also one thing to restrict wifi to 60 minutes for all customers, and it's another to feel entitled to use free wifi and lots of power for hours on end after buying a small coffee. Both are frustrating. I don't know. I guess it's really up to the owner to figure out what works. As a laptop owner, it never makes me happy to see those types of restrictions, but as someone who has run these businesses before, I'm not happy to see the small but annoying percentage of laptop users who have entitlement issues.

dasil003 17y ago

I think the purpose is to create a community meeting place rather than a laptop farm. So in that sense they do want you to go elsewhere. There's a market for both kinds of coffee shops. I haven't had a problem finding local laptop-friendly coffee shops wherever I live.

anigbrowl 17y ago

Perhaps you're not the sort of customer some businesses want? Not everyone necessarily wants to feel like they're on a university campus at exam time or in the middle of a business park. A bunch of people with laptops is unwelcoming if you enter a coffee shop primed for chatter and flirting (for example).

rdtsc 17y ago
It seems, there is a sweet spot of how many people you want in your coffee shop. If it looks empty, potential customers off the street won't go in. That's the herd effect ("if there are so many people there, then it must be good"). However, if the coffee shop is full of people with laptops, not buying any drinks or food, then customers who walk in, hoping to get a coffee and a muffin, will walk out, because there are too many people there, and not enough seats. The goal of the owners is to module the amount of people sitting in the coffee shop. They (the owners) can setup a schedule to simply disallow wi-fi usage and turn the power off on some outlets during certain busy times of day (lunch for ex.) That is a little subversive because it will be perceived as a confrontation. The other way to do it, is to simply ask the patrons to purchase more food and indicate that the coffee shop is struggling financially. Being honest might work a lot better.
- olliesaunders 17y ago
  That's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof