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> ... the Catholic Church not only acknowledges Galileo but also apologized for its treatment of him ... Yes, hundreds of years later, in carefully crafted lan

by lutusp 13y ago

> ... the Catholic Church not only acknowledges Galileo but also apologized for its treatment of him ... Yes, hundreds of years later, in carefully crafted language meant to excuse the Church's behavior as understandable under the circumstances. It's not quite the same thing as acknowledging an error of judgment on the part of a living Pope. > In 12 years of Catholic school I never once heard a priest, nun, deacon, or teacher aver to any deficiency in Galileo's work. He was presented to students as a hero of science, as one would expect. Yes, and 350 years from now, someone within the Church who today advocates free access to birth control will be hailed as ahead of his or her time, but as with Galileo, the praise and forgiveness will come far too late. I want to emphasize that I think the Catholic church is a fascinating entity with very many well-intentioned followers, but the thinly veiled intolerance for ideas outside the canon is a constant irritation.

tptacek 13y ago
I'm not remotely interested in litigating most of this. Anyone who tries to rationalize the legitimacy of the United States is in a similarly tricky rhetorical position vis a vis slavery and genocide, and within a much shorter historical timespan. If you cast your net several centuries back, it would be hard to find any group of people who don't have something truly appalling to excuse themselves for. The important point is: I was repeatedly taught about Galileo in Catholic grade school and Jesuit high school, and those lessons were invariably centered on the genius of Galileo. There are militantly anti-science flavors of Christianity, but urban Catholicism isn't one of them. Guess who taught the first lesson I can remember about evolution? A nun. Your comment created the perception that Galileo is a divisive issue amongst Catholics, or the Catholic church. He is not. Galileo is recognized as a hero of science by the Catholic church, which I assure you has long (as in, for hundreds of years) since embraced heliocentrism. Later, full disclosure: I polled Catholic school students in my office and found one person who had a Christian Brother teacher who believed Galileo to be a heretic. Shows to go you, you can find nutballs anywhere you look for them.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > I'm not remotely interested in litigating most of this. This reminds me of the character in "Five Easy Pieces" who repeatedly says, "I don't want to talk about this," while talking about it nonstop. > Anyone who tries to rationalize the legitimacy of the United States is in a similarly tricky rhetorical position ... Wait, did you just compare a government to a church? Governments aren't religions -- they don't posture as morally superior gateways to heaven. > If you cast your net several centuries back, it would be hard to find any group of people who don't have something truly appalling to excuse themselves for. Yes, true, which is why religions are in the impossible logical position of posturing about a moral superiority they can never substantiate. > Your comment created the perception that Galileo is a divisive issue amongst Catholics, or the Catholic church. I did nothing of the kind. Prove me wrong -- locate the quote in which I say that modern Catholics don't think Galileo is a hero of the scientific revolution. The word "is" in the above sentence is your choice -- by contrast, I took the position that Galileo was an issue for the church, until 1992 when he was rehabilitated. It's a simple matter of reading the words. And your reply completely vindicates the views in the post you replied to, a post in which I say, "I want to emphasize that I think the Catholic church is a fascinating entity with very many well-intentioned followers, but the thinly veiled intolerance for ideas outside the canon is a constant irritation." > Later, full disclosure: I polled Catholic school students in my office and found one person who had a Christian Brother teacher who believed Galileo to be a heretic. Shows to go you, you can find nutballs anywhere you look for them. There's a lot of rationalization in your prose. You do see this, yes?
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Nope. Also, you've moved the goalposts, from defending the validity of a comparison that had nothing to do with "moral superiority" to litigating a "moral superiority" that I have nowhere invoked or relied on rhetorically. We can probably stop debating now; you're entitled to have problems and concerns about Catholicism.
- rmc 13y ago
  "Evolution" is a hot button issue for some evangelican christians and is a big deal in the USA, leading some to think the only sort of science vs. religion topic is evolution. As you point out, RCC is fine with evolution. But RCC are not very scientific when it comes to matters of sex or sexuality. They oppose teaching about contraception, and often spread lies and misinformation about condoms, abortion, homosexuality, etc.

by lutusp 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

I'm not remotely interested in litigating most of this. Anyone who tries to rationalize the legitimacy of the United States is in a similarly tricky rhetorical position vis a vis slavery and genocide, and within a much shorter historical timespan. If you cast your net several centuries back, it would be hard to find any group of people who don't have something truly appalling to excuse themselves for. The important point is: I was repeatedly taught about Galileo in Catholic grade school and Jesuit high school, and those lessons were invariably centered on the genius of Galileo. There are militantly anti-science flavors of Christianity, but urban Catholicism isn't one of them. Guess who taught the first lesson I can remember about evolution? A nun. Your comment created the perception that Galileo is a divisive issue amongst Catholics, or the Catholic church. He is not. Galileo is recognized as a hero of science by the Catholic church, which I assure you has long (as in, for hundreds of years) since embraced heliocentrism. Later, full disclosure: I polled Catholic school students in my office and found one person who had a Christian Brother teacher who believed Galileo to be a heretic. Shows to go you, you can find nutballs anywhere you look for them.

lutusp 13y ago
> I'm not remotely interested in litigating most of this. This reminds me of the character in "Five Easy Pieces" who repeatedly says, "I don't want to talk about this," while talking about it nonstop. > Anyone who tries to rationalize the legitimacy of the United States is in a similarly tricky rhetorical position ... Wait, did you just compare a government to a church? Governments aren't religions -- they don't posture as morally superior gateways to heaven. > If you cast your net several centuries back, it would be hard to find any group of people who don't have something truly appalling to excuse themselves for. Yes, true, which is why religions are in the impossible logical position of posturing about a moral superiority they can never substantiate. > Your comment created the perception that Galileo is a divisive issue amongst Catholics, or the Catholic church. I did nothing of the kind. Prove me wrong -- locate the quote in which I say that modern Catholics don't think Galileo is a hero of the scientific revolution. The word "is" in the above sentence is your choice -- by contrast, I took the position that Galileo was an issue for the church, until 1992 when he was rehabilitated. It's a simple matter of reading the words. And your reply completely vindicates the views in the post you replied to, a post in which I say, "I want to emphasize that I think the Catholic church is a fascinating entity with very many well-intentioned followers, but the thinly veiled intolerance for ideas outside the canon is a constant irritation." > Later, full disclosure: I polled Catholic school students in my office and found one person who had a Christian Brother teacher who believed Galileo to be a heretic. Shows to go you, you can find nutballs anywhere you look for them. There's a lot of rationalization in your prose. You do see this, yes?
- tptacek 13y ago
  Nope. Also, you've moved the goalposts, from defending the validity of a comparison that had nothing to do with "moral superiority" to litigating a "moral superiority" that I have nowhere invoked or relied on rhetorically. We can probably stop debating now; you're entitled to have problems and concerns about Catholicism.
rmc 13y ago
"Evolution" is a hot button issue for some evangelican christians and is a big deal in the USA, leading some to think the only sort of science vs. religion topic is evolution. As you point out, RCC is fine with evolution. But RCC are not very scientific when it comes to matters of sex or sexuality. They oppose teaching about contraception, and often spread lies and misinformation about condoms, abortion, homosexuality, etc.