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> "I know this is likely an unpopular opinion but here it goes: what the fuck does this have to do with under-representation in our industry?" I agree. Aren't

by wsc981 13y ago

> "I know this is likely an unpopular opinion but here it goes: what the fuck does this have to do with under-representation in our industry?" I agree. Aren't woman underrepresented in most STEM jobs anyways? And overrepresented in other jobs like e.g. kindergarten teachers? Woman are just wired differently as men. And perhaps woman are also conditioned differently as men from a young age (girls get to play with dolls, boys with cars and legos). There could be an evolutionary reason for this, since ages ago most men were probably hunters while most woman likely tended to the children. Of course sexism in tech is bad and we should try to reduce sexism wherever possible, but that's a different issue. I'm not sure we should try to push woman into technology (or fields like construction, etc...), just as I'm not sure we should try to push men into jobs where men are underrepresented.

weland 13y ago
I don't know it's a matter of men and women being "wired differently" or not, what I'm implying is that seriously, this site, while tasteless and of questionable educational quality, is really no more sexist than your average TV commercial, shopping mall or bar. Not everything with boobs is sexist, ffs.
- amassparadox 13y ago
  It's not, but should we also not protest those as well? Do we not teach children wrong by showing we are displeased? That silence means their actions are acceptable. Perhaps not reward-worthy, but acceptable. Thus are you saying that the behaviors shown on TV, shopping malls, bars, that is how you want you, your friends, your children to be treated?
  - weland 13y ago
    It's how my children are going to be treated this way by anyone who thinks that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. I'd much rather have my children think for themselves and know how to deal with people who behave in a way they think is unacceptable to them, than futilely protest against something that many people find absolutely fine.
abracar 13y ago
Under-representation doesn't only have to do with "women being wired differently". See, even women who have studied STEM are more likely to drop out from STEM jobs - for a series of reasons, but sexism seems to be one of them, so it's not off-topic here. By the way, I do think we should also support diversity in some jobs where men are underrepresented, like teaching - I was reading a psychiatrist explain how the "girlification of elementary school" can be damaging for boys. (http://www.esquire.com/features/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414 http://www.esquire.com/features/drugging-of-the-american-boy...)
cbtacy 13y ago
"Of course sexism in tech is bad and we should try to reduce sexism wherever possible, but that's a different issue." i nominate for Best Mansplaining.
- celebril 13y ago
  I never thought I'd live to see the day the word "mansplaining" is used on Hacker News unironically.
amassparadox 13y ago
As a logical thinking human being, if you are constantly being told you should go be a teacher, nurse, etc and then you end up in a field where you are told you do not belong. Where every day you have to wonder if the guy smiling creepily at you is listening to you or staring at your chest during scrum. Where you wonder if you should report the guy who would not let go of your hand when you and your coworkers went for drinks after work or if that would make them fire you for being a disruptive influence. Or maybe you should just not socialize with your coworkers. If you are an intelligent human being who could go do and learn whatever you wanted, which was why you went, fuck conformity, I'm going to program and did it, why would you stay in an environment where you feel unsafe, objectified, and unwanted? And at the end of the day, if another human being tells you that your actions make them feel unsafe, objectified, and unwanted, why is your reaction to tell them to leave? Have you considered that perhaps there are girls who do not like playing with dolls? Who wanted the legos and Knex, who their parents had to threaten to keep them from taking apart the television and wanted a soldering iron instead of Barbies. That the very girls who ignore the conditioning you mentioned who make it regardless of social pressures when they realize that you, their peers, will continue to think they do not belong and they will have to fight your mentality for the rest of their lives, that you would rather believe that they simply can't hack it so you can justify the job distribution, why should they have to endure the perpetual questioning, lewd comments, uncomfortable stares, and stress? Why as fellow human beings would you ask that of anyone?

by wsc981 13y ago

weland 13y ago

I don't know it's a matter of men and women being "wired differently" or not, what I'm implying is that seriously, this site, while tasteless and of questionable educational quality, is really no more sexist than your average TV commercial, shopping mall or bar. Not everything with boobs is sexist, ffs.

amassparadox 13y ago
It's not, but should we also not protest those as well? Do we not teach children wrong by showing we are displeased? That silence means their actions are acceptable. Perhaps not reward-worthy, but acceptable. Thus are you saying that the behaviors shown on TV, shopping malls, bars, that is how you want you, your friends, your children to be treated?
- weland 13y ago
  It's how my children are going to be treated this way by anyone who thinks that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. I'd much rather have my children think for themselves and know how to deal with people who behave in a way they think is unacceptable to them, than futilely protest against something that many people find absolutely fine.

abracar 13y ago

Under-representation doesn't only have to do with "women being wired differently". See, even women who have studied STEM are more likely to drop out from STEM jobs - for a series of reasons, but sexism seems to be one of them, so it's not off-topic here. By the way, I do think we should also support diversity in some jobs where men are underrepresented, like teaching - I was reading a psychiatrist explain how the "girlification of elementary school" can be damaging for boys. (http://www.esquire.com/features/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414 http://www.esquire.com/features/drugging-of-the-american-boy...)

cbtacy 13y ago

"Of course sexism in tech is bad and we should try to reduce sexism wherever possible, but that's a different issue." i nominate for Best Mansplaining.

celebril 13y ago
I never thought I'd live to see the day the word "mansplaining" is used on Hacker News unironically.

amassparadox 13y ago

As a logical thinking human being, if you are constantly being told you should go be a teacher, nurse, etc and then you end up in a field where you are told you do not belong. Where every day you have to wonder if the guy smiling creepily at you is listening to you or staring at your chest during scrum. Where you wonder if you should report the guy who would not let go of your hand when you and your coworkers went for drinks after work or if that would make them fire you for being a disruptive influence. Or maybe you should just not socialize with your coworkers. If you are an intelligent human being who could go do and learn whatever you wanted, which was why you went, fuck conformity, I'm going to program and did it, why would you stay in an environment where you feel unsafe, objectified, and unwanted? And at the end of the day, if another human being tells you that your actions make them feel unsafe, objectified, and unwanted, why is your reaction to tell them to leave? Have you considered that perhaps there are girls who do not like playing with dolls? Who wanted the legos and Knex, who their parents had to threaten to keep them from taking apart the television and wanted a soldering iron instead of Barbies. That the very girls who ignore the conditioning you mentioned who make it regardless of social pressures when they realize that you, their peers, will continue to think they do not belong and they will have to fight your mentality for the rest of their lives, that you would rather believe that they simply can't hack it so you can justify the job distribution, why should they have to endure the perpetual questioning, lewd comments, uncomfortable stares, and stress? Why as fellow human beings would you ask that of anyone?