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No one should have to endure this sort of thing, which is somewhat worse than what I experienced myself (pervasive internet use is a significant amplifier). Ki

by amalcon 13y ago

No one should have to endure this sort of thing, which is somewhat worse than what I experienced myself (pervasive internet use is a significant amplifier). Kids are a lot stronger than we give them credit for -- much stronger than adults, I think. Primary and secondary schools are an extremely harsh environment, because they have many of the same problems as prisons to a lesser degree. We forcibly put large groups of socially underdeveloped people together, and barely monitor the situation. Kids can't even really escape the systemic problems at home anymore, due to the internet. Somehow, the vast majority of our children manage to come out of them more or less intact. This is nothing less than miraculous, one of the great unsung triumphs of human spirit. I keep coming back to how nobody should have to endure this. This triumph is over an adversity of our own making. We can and should take this more seriously than any other threat to children, even though they somehow endure it, because it is more pervasive.

sillysaurus3 13y ago
Somehow, the vast majority of our children manage to come out of them more or less intact. Except the ones who kill themsleves. Or the ones who are fundamentally changed for the rest of their lives. Or the ones who grow a hatred and distrust for the people in charge who did nothing to protect them. Or...
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Or the ones who grow a hatred and distrust for the people in charge who did nothing to protect them. Sounds like that one is inevitable, no matter where you are.
- amalcon 13y ago
  Sure, I don't mean to imply that bullying does no damage. Quite the opposite, in fact. The fact that anyone can experience bullying, survive, and go on to be a productive adult is impressive. The fact that most do is downright incredible, and were there not so much evidence I would not have believed it possible. This does nothing to lessen the tragedy of those who are not so lucky.
  - sillysaurus3 13y ago
    The fact that anyone can experience bullying, survive, and go on to be a productive adult is impressive. My point is that many don't. Perhaps most. Your comment serves as "comfort food" for those who would like to ignore the problem: "It's good that most children are strong! And it's a pity that some aren't." But most aren't. People who can be changed so fundamentally for the rest of their lives aren't strong people.
    - amalcon 13y ago
      If people take from my comment that we should ignore the problem, they have no ability to consider the basic morality. We are psychologically torturing a large number of children. That burden is on us. We create the situation where bullying is possible, and refuse to address that consequence in an effective manner. We refuse to even give children or their parents an effective tool to address it on an individual level. This makes me sick, and it should make you sick, too. Anyone would be fundamentally changed for life by the level of psychological torture we inflict on our children. It requires significant strength just to not develop a serious addiction, run away, or commit suicide -- strength I don't see in most adults I know.
  - ishansharma 13y ago
    The fact that anyone can experience bullying, survive, and go on to be a productive adult is impressive. The fact that most do is downright incredible It is not. I know lots of people who were hampered for life because of bullying. I had two factors in my favor: 1. I was already in mid teens when bullying started, and knew that I could endure it. 2. Being a smart kid, I had support of teachers. So, I ended up focusing more on studies rather than interacting with classmates. I know quite a few people who were bullied and basically wrapped themselves in a cocoon and missed learning important skills (communication, social)
- Pinatubo 13y ago
  Your "except" doesn't actually contradict what you're responding to.
  - nodelessness 13y ago
    May be that wasn't his intention.
mathattack 13y ago
This is very terrible. From reading the article, was it a private boarding school? I'm curious if the pressures in those environments are worse, because the parental support system is weaker.
- johnny_reilly 13y ago
  Speaking as a fellow Brit I think not - it sounds like a standard comprehensive school.
- arethuza 13y ago
  Although I don't have experience of boarding schools, I suspect private schools may be better as parents tend to be very sensitive to whether they are getting value for money - so if you're child is unhappy and/or under-performing parents want to ask why. Also private schools can be very quick to get rid of kids who cause trouble. Our son goes to a boys only private school and I have to say its been a great success - but we did select the school by doing a review of all the people we knew who went to private school (not difficult in Edinburgh) and picking the one that seemed to produce the "nicest" most well-rounded people.
doktrin 13y ago
> Somehow, the vast majority of our children manage to come out of them more or less intact. I tend to agree. In retrospection, adolescent social environments rank among the most unpleasant experiences I've had in my life. Not only unpleasant, but IMHO unproductively so. While I acknowledge it's difficult to objectively assess oneself, I genuinely can't help but view the worst adolescent trauma I experienced as anything more than a waste of time. We often forgive a lot of abuse effected by children and towards children as a "natural" part of development. I don't hold that view. If I can spare my kids similar experiences, I certainly will. Life is preciously short, and we owe it to ourselves not to waste energy on the absolute wheel-spinning nonsense that kids all too often inflict on each other.
- marvin 13y ago
  If you're lucky, bullying can teach you how to deal with completely unreasonable people and how to play social and legal games to retaliate when someone fucks things up for you. This has been my experience for bullying that happened early in my adult life. You need to be in the right place to get anything good out of it, though.

by amalcon 13y ago

sillysaurus3 13y ago

Somehow, the vast majority of our children manage to come out of them more or less intact. Except the ones who kill themsleves. Or the ones who are fundamentally changed for the rest of their lives. Or the ones who grow a hatred and distrust for the people in charge who did nothing to protect them. Or...

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
Or the ones who grow a hatred and distrust for the people in charge who did nothing to protect them. Sounds like that one is inevitable, no matter where you are.
amalcon 13y ago
Sure, I don't mean to imply that bullying does no damage. Quite the opposite, in fact. The fact that anyone can experience bullying, survive, and go on to be a productive adult is impressive. The fact that most do is downright incredible, and were there not so much evidence I would not have believed it possible. This does nothing to lessen the tragedy of those who are not so lucky.
- sillysaurus3 13y ago
  The fact that anyone can experience bullying, survive, and go on to be a productive adult is impressive. My point is that many don't. Perhaps most. Your comment serves as "comfort food" for those who would like to ignore the problem: "It's good that most children are strong! And it's a pity that some aren't." But most aren't. People who can be changed so fundamentally for the rest of their lives aren't strong people.
  - amalcon 13y ago
    If people take from my comment that we should ignore the problem, they have no ability to consider the basic morality. We are psychologically torturing a large number of children. That burden is on us. We create the situation where bullying is possible, and refuse to address that consequence in an effective manner. We refuse to even give children or their parents an effective tool to address it on an individual level. This makes me sick, and it should make you sick, too. Anyone would be fundamentally changed for life by the level of psychological torture we inflict on our children. It requires significant strength just to not develop a serious addiction, run away, or commit suicide -- strength I don't see in most adults I know.
- ishansharma 13y ago
  The fact that anyone can experience bullying, survive, and go on to be a productive adult is impressive. The fact that most do is downright incredible It is not. I know lots of people who were hampered for life because of bullying. I had two factors in my favor: 1. I was already in mid teens when bullying started, and knew that I could endure it. 2. Being a smart kid, I had support of teachers. So, I ended up focusing more on studies rather than interacting with classmates. I know quite a few people who were bullied and basically wrapped themselves in a cocoon and missed learning important skills (communication, social)
Pinatubo 13y ago
Your "except" doesn't actually contradict what you're responding to.
- nodelessness 13y ago
  May be that wasn't his intention.

mathattack 13y ago

This is very terrible. From reading the article, was it a private boarding school? I'm curious if the pressures in those environments are worse, because the parental support system is weaker.

johnny_reilly 13y ago
Speaking as a fellow Brit I think not - it sounds like a standard comprehensive school.
arethuza 13y ago
Although I don't have experience of boarding schools, I suspect private schools may be better as parents tend to be very sensitive to whether they are getting value for money - so if you're child is unhappy and/or under-performing parents want to ask why. Also private schools can be very quick to get rid of kids who cause trouble. Our son goes to a boys only private school and I have to say its been a great success - but we did select the school by doing a review of all the people we knew who went to private school (not difficult in Edinburgh) and picking the one that seemed to produce the "nicest" most well-rounded people.

doktrin 13y ago

> Somehow, the vast majority of our children manage to come out of them more or less intact. I tend to agree. In retrospection, adolescent social environments rank among the most unpleasant experiences I've had in my life. Not only unpleasant, but IMHO unproductively so. While I acknowledge it's difficult to objectively assess oneself, I genuinely can't help but view the worst adolescent trauma I experienced as anything more than a waste of time. We often forgive a lot of abuse effected by children and towards children as a "natural" part of development. I don't hold that view. If I can spare my kids similar experiences, I certainly will. Life is preciously short, and we owe it to ourselves not to waste energy on the absolute wheel-spinning nonsense that kids all too often inflict on each other.

marvin 13y ago
If you're lucky, bullying can teach you how to deal with completely unreasonable people and how to play social and legal games to retaliate when someone fucks things up for you. This has been my experience for bullying that happened early in my adult life. You need to be in the right place to get anything good out of it, though.