5 ms·

> Don't attempt romantic relationships at work. (...)The women usually get the rough end of this deal, too, because men aren't good at handling the inevitable r

> Don't attempt romantic relationships at work. (...)The women usually get the rough end of this deal, too, because men aren't good at handling the inevitable rejection. Just don't do it. Have all the romantic relationships you want outside work, but do not bring it to work. I find this incredibly childish - the idea that men (not some men, just men) are childish and cannot behave like grown ups, up to the point in which the company has to step in and tell them how to behave. I'm not sold up either on the idea that I'm not allowed to date anyone in the one place where I spend most of my day, where I'm surrounded by people who share my interests and where I met most of my friends. I'm all in for bringing in more women, but this points sounds too much like "let's protect this delicate, defenseless flower" to me.

jakobe 12y ago
I assume it's about setting expectations. If you meet your true love at work, company policy isn't going to stop you. But company policy might give you an easy way out when someone is hitting on you (and you aren't interested), without hurt feelings. Also, this isn't just about men hitting on women; it also goes the other way.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  So hitting on someone at work is ok as long as they're interested, otherwise you get fired?
  - Kequc 12y ago
    If the woman is attracted to you then she expects you to make a romantic gesture. If you don't she's hurt. If she's not attracted then such a gesture could hurt her. Policies like no dating is a lot to do with protecting women in the workplace from having to go out of their way expressing themselves. A much better policy could be everyone has to make their intentions clear.
    - lutusp 12y ago
      > A much better policy could be everyone has to make their intentions clear. Easily said, but impossible to put into practice. Have you ever tried to get a woman to make her intentions clear? Apart from being seen as insulting, it's an impossible condition to place on social interactions between men and women, where a woman's inalienable right to be vague and ambiguous is an essential component of the dating game.
      - Kequc 12y ago
        I thought you were going to go a different direction with that. All joking aside I really feel like the policies outlined in the op wreak of "apparently nobody in this company is mature enough to engage in what all adults engage in and we selfishly don't want to have to let people go due to their emotional unpreparedness." Which is possible given that a lot of the most promising developers are young, I still don't agree with it. People need to be able to make mistakes and corporate culture is strangling them.
  - jakobe 12y ago
    No one said love was without risks! Joking aside, I think you are misunderstanding me. I don't suggest anybody should be fired for asking someone for a date. I'm saying that company policy can give you an easy way to say "no" to a date: "Sorry, I don't want to jeopardize my career, you know company policy.". Ideally, the person asking you out will accept your rejection, and there's no need to fire anyone.
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      That excuse becomes unusable quickly as the number of office couples grows. A policy on the books won't let you off the hook when everyone knows it's not an actual policy.
    - mithaler 12y ago
      Not just "ideally"; I would go so far as to say that the situation where the rejected person does not gracefully accept it is the point at which anyone in that situation has first done something "bad". (We have a term for further retribution against the rejector in a professional context: "sexual harassment". In an ordinary personal context, we would simply say it makes the person an asshole.)
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    Isn't this longstanding policy nearly everywhere? SNL's words of wisdom on "how to avoid committing sexual harassment at work": 1. Be handsome 2. Be attractive 3. Don't be unattractive
codinghorror 12y ago
I was mostly speaking about myself there, but yes, I believe it is true of most men. Tell them they can't have something, and they will suddenly want it more than they've ever wanted anything in their entire lives. Also, didn't this just happen at GitHub?
- Cederfjard 12y ago
  I'm a man, so I wouldn't know, but isn't this true of most women too?
- Jare 12y ago
  Sexual harassment has NOTHING to do with romance. I don't think anyone has a complete picture of what really happened at GitHub. But even assuming the worst, it's an anecdote, just as valuable as any of the relationships we have seen flourish in our workplaces, which don't make headlines because they are simply, boringly successful and wonderful.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
mtrimpe 12y ago
I think it's very good advice; just overly specific. It should be "have a dating policy," or have explicit guidelines on how to handle intra-office relationships. I'd say it doesn't matter whether it's a 'no-dating', 'no propositions in the office', or a 'one goes, both go' policy in case of problems... just as long as you're explicitly addressing the issue.
scarecrowbob 12y ago
It is interesting that you cast this idea in this way, because while I can see your point that he's talking about women getting the "rough end" of a deal, specifically, it isn't telling _only_ men how to behave. And while I don't want to "sell" you on the idea, I can say that my ex, who dated three different coworkers (one while she was married to me :D ) probably should have taken that advice, not that she would have... people will do what they do. But I agree with the larger point of making it a specific policy... if just because it gives graceful outs all around.

jakobe 12y ago

I assume it's about setting expectations. If you meet your true love at work, company policy isn't going to stop you. But company policy might give you an easy way out when someone is hitting on you (and you aren't interested), without hurt feelings. Also, this isn't just about men hitting on women; it also goes the other way.

jiggy2011 12y ago
So hitting on someone at work is ok as long as they're interested, otherwise you get fired?
- Kequc 12y ago
  If the woman is attracted to you then she expects you to make a romantic gesture. If you don't she's hurt. If she's not attracted then such a gesture could hurt her. Policies like no dating is a lot to do with protecting women in the workplace from having to go out of their way expressing themselves. A much better policy could be everyone has to make their intentions clear.
  - lutusp 12y ago
    > A much better policy could be everyone has to make their intentions clear. Easily said, but impossible to put into practice. Have you ever tried to get a woman to make her intentions clear? Apart from being seen as insulting, it's an impossible condition to place on social interactions between men and women, where a woman's inalienable right to be vague and ambiguous is an essential component of the dating game.
    - Kequc 12y ago
      I thought you were going to go a different direction with that. All joking aside I really feel like the policies outlined in the op wreak of "apparently nobody in this company is mature enough to engage in what all adults engage in and we selfishly don't want to have to let people go due to their emotional unpreparedness." Which is possible given that a lot of the most promising developers are young, I still don't agree with it. People need to be able to make mistakes and corporate culture is strangling them.
- jakobe 12y ago
  No one said love was without risks! Joking aside, I think you are misunderstanding me. I don't suggest anybody should be fired for asking someone for a date. I'm saying that company policy can give you an easy way to say "no" to a date: "Sorry, I don't want to jeopardize my career, you know company policy.". Ideally, the person asking you out will accept your rejection, and there's no need to fire anyone.
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    That excuse becomes unusable quickly as the number of office couples grows. A policy on the books won't let you off the hook when everyone knows it's not an actual policy.
  - mithaler 12y ago
    Not just "ideally"; I would go so far as to say that the situation where the rejected person does not gracefully accept it is the point at which anyone in that situation has first done something "bad". (We have a term for further retribution against the rejector in a professional context: "sexual harassment". In an ordinary personal context, we would simply say it makes the person an asshole.)
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  Isn't this longstanding policy nearly everywhere? SNL's words of wisdom on "how to avoid committing sexual harassment at work": 1. Be handsome 2. Be attractive 3. Don't be unattractive

codinghorror 12y ago

I was mostly speaking about myself there, but yes, I believe it is true of most men. Tell them they can't have something, and they will suddenly want it more than they've ever wanted anything in their entire lives. Also, didn't this just happen at GitHub?

Cederfjard 12y ago
I'm a man, so I wouldn't know, but isn't this true of most women too?
Jare 12y ago
Sexual harassment has NOTHING to do with romance. I don't think anyone has a complete picture of what really happened at GitHub. But even assuming the worst, it's an anecdote, just as valuable as any of the relationships we have seen flourish in our workplaces, which don't make headlines because they are simply, boringly successful and wonderful.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

mtrimpe 12y ago

I think it's very good advice; just overly specific. It should be "have a dating policy," or have explicit guidelines on how to handle intra-office relationships. I'd say it doesn't matter whether it's a 'no-dating', 'no propositions in the office', or a 'one goes, both go' policy in case of problems... just as long as you're explicitly addressing the issue.

scarecrowbob 12y ago

It is interesting that you cast this idea in this way, because while I can see your point that he's talking about women getting the "rough end" of a deal, specifically, it isn't telling _only_ men how to behave. And while I don't want to "sell" you on the idea, I can say that my ex, who dated three different coworkers (one while she was married to me :D ) probably should have taken that advice, not that she would have... people will do what they do. But I agree with the larger point of making it a specific policy... if just because it gives graceful outs all around.