5 ms·

Living in a re-purposed warehouse, subsisting on ramen and not knowing whether you'll be able to pay for food tomorrow seems like a very high price to pay just

Living in a re-purposed warehouse, subsisting on ramen and not knowing whether you'll be able to pay for food tomorrow seems like a very high price to pay just to be physically close to something that mostly lives just as an idea in these young people's minds. If anything, it strikes me as a terribly dismal existence for not a whole lot of reward and enjoyment. The most ironic thing is that the people who reap the most benefits of living in the Valley are the ones working for big established companies. I think it is more probable that many people who decide to do this do it for the lifestyle and for the image they associate with the "startup" life, the same way some people decide to live in hippie communes. It's just a lifestyle choice.

soup10 12y ago
It's basically just stupid. Lots of people with little to no exceptional talent or skill thinking that they if they just grind it out long enough they'll strike it rich with their mediocre business idea. In NY these people are called naive and stupid. In SV these people are called bold risk-takers.
- argonaut 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure they're considered naive in SV too.
- towski 12y ago
  I guess everyone is lacking that bit of information that separates them from the real comptrollers
- rralian 12y ago
  I think it's quite similar to the aspiring actor taking a bus to Hollywood with a backpack and a dream, and roughly the same chances of making it big. Except it's probably easier to make a go at tech outside of SV than to make a go of acting outside of Hollywood (and New York). And a lot easier to bootstrap too. But from the aspirant's point of view it's similar.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Actually, there are a lot of movie-making hubs popping up around the US. Lots of cities (mine included) are trying to grow a film industry with incentives. (I think it's a poor policy decision, since it's just another beggar-thy-neighbor system, but that's a separate issue.) If you are trying to get into film you don't have to go to Hollywood these days. Hollywood is still the plurality of US film-making, but I don't think it's the majority any more.)
    - hessenwolf 12y ago
      It's not really beggar-thy-neighbour if we just end up with more entertainment. If there were more good shows, I'd watch more tv. (not sure I want that outcome!)
      - danielweber 12y ago
        I meant the "come here, we'll give you bigger tax breaks" rat chase.
    - cdcarter 12y ago
      If you want to be cast, you want to be in LA or NYC. If you want to PA, it may be advantageous to be in the shooting city, but local PAs will still be lower on the totem than the PAs from the production company, until they prove themselves.
- nayefc 12y ago
  Best description to date.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
nrao123 12y ago
A key part of living in big cities is the optionality. Because some of these cities are so dense with engineers , investors etc that the probability of something positive happening to you is far higher than other cities. for e.g. the odds of getting a meeting with investors or getting feedback on a key product direction will be higher in dense cities such as SF. Of course the tradeoff of that is the costs are higher. Very rarely do you find an arbitrage situation where the optionality of something positive happening to you is higher AND the cost of living is lower
- olifante 12y ago
  Berlin: One of the cheapest capitals in Europe, reasonably vibrant IT scene. Apartments inside the city can be had for as little as 300€ if you hunt long enough, although 600-700€ is becoming the new standard. Restaurants are cheap too: 5€ for lunch, 7-9€ for dinner. Lots of space, little traffic, the best public transport network in Europe, tons of lakes and green spaces.
  - romanovcode 12y ago
    Do you, yourself, live there and maybe can answer some questions? - Is it 500EUR per week or per month? What apt and in what place (good, bad) you live on this kind of money? - What happens if you don't know German (are willing to lean, but have no lang. skills whatsoever) - What is medium (after tax) income for programmers there per month?
    - olifante 12y ago
      Yes, I live here. All prices are per month. If you want to live inside the S-Bahn ring, you will find it difficult nowadays to pay less than 600-700€ a month for a two-bedroom apartment. The low end of €300 is probably only realistic for one-bedroom apartments outside the ring or maybe a two-bedroom apartment in the high-rise buildings in the suburbs. You can live in Berlin without knowing much German, but services and bureaucracy will be a bit painful. It's not like Scandinavia, where people feel insulted if you ask them if they speak English. Many Germans, even educated ones, are not really confortable speaking English. It's not that they're not willing, many of them actually can't speak it or speak it badly. Of course, everything is easier with younger people. Average gross salaries for developers range from 45,000€ a year for juniors to 60,000€ for seniors. Expect to earn around 60% to 70% of that after taxes, social security and health insurance.
bowlofpetunias 12y ago
Is this new though? Any major city has seen young people doing exactly that with dreams of making it big. So we used to associate this more with artists, actors and alike. Now in certain places we can add tech start-up founders to the list. And unlike the aforementioned, these are generally people who can get a well paid job if they wanted to. It's part of being young and ambitious, and I don't see much difference between young founders begging for funding and actors going on auditions.

soup10 12y ago

It's basically just stupid. Lots of people with little to no exceptional talent or skill thinking that they if they just grind it out long enough they'll strike it rich with their mediocre business idea. In NY these people are called naive and stupid. In SV these people are called bold risk-takers.

argonaut 12y ago
I'm pretty sure they're considered naive in SV too.
towski 12y ago
I guess everyone is lacking that bit of information that separates them from the real comptrollers
rralian 12y ago
I think it's quite similar to the aspiring actor taking a bus to Hollywood with a backpack and a dream, and roughly the same chances of making it big. Except it's probably easier to make a go at tech outside of SV than to make a go of acting outside of Hollywood (and New York). And a lot easier to bootstrap too. But from the aspirant's point of view it's similar.
- danielweber 12y ago
  Actually, there are a lot of movie-making hubs popping up around the US. Lots of cities (mine included) are trying to grow a film industry with incentives. (I think it's a poor policy decision, since it's just another beggar-thy-neighbor system, but that's a separate issue.) If you are trying to get into film you don't have to go to Hollywood these days. Hollywood is still the plurality of US film-making, but I don't think it's the majority any more.)
  - hessenwolf 12y ago
    It's not really beggar-thy-neighbour if we just end up with more entertainment. If there were more good shows, I'd watch more tv. (not sure I want that outcome!)
    - danielweber 12y ago
      I meant the "come here, we'll give you bigger tax breaks" rat chase.
  - cdcarter 12y ago
    If you want to be cast, you want to be in LA or NYC. If you want to PA, it may be advantageous to be in the shooting city, but local PAs will still be lower on the totem than the PAs from the production company, until they prove themselves.
nayefc 12y ago
Best description to date.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

nrao123 12y ago

A key part of living in big cities is the optionality. Because some of these cities are so dense with engineers , investors etc that the probability of something positive happening to you is far higher than other cities. for e.g. the odds of getting a meeting with investors or getting feedback on a key product direction will be higher in dense cities such as SF. Of course the tradeoff of that is the costs are higher. Very rarely do you find an arbitrage situation where the optionality of something positive happening to you is higher AND the cost of living is lower

olifante 12y ago
Berlin: One of the cheapest capitals in Europe, reasonably vibrant IT scene. Apartments inside the city can be had for as little as 300€ if you hunt long enough, although 600-700€ is becoming the new standard. Restaurants are cheap too: 5€ for lunch, 7-9€ for dinner. Lots of space, little traffic, the best public transport network in Europe, tons of lakes and green spaces.
- romanovcode 12y ago
  Do you, yourself, live there and maybe can answer some questions? - Is it 500EUR per week or per month? What apt and in what place (good, bad) you live on this kind of money? - What happens if you don't know German (are willing to lean, but have no lang. skills whatsoever) - What is medium (after tax) income for programmers there per month?
  - olifante 12y ago
    Yes, I live here. All prices are per month. If you want to live inside the S-Bahn ring, you will find it difficult nowadays to pay less than 600-700€ a month for a two-bedroom apartment. The low end of €300 is probably only realistic for one-bedroom apartments outside the ring or maybe a two-bedroom apartment in the high-rise buildings in the suburbs. You can live in Berlin without knowing much German, but services and bureaucracy will be a bit painful. It's not like Scandinavia, where people feel insulted if you ask them if they speak English. Many Germans, even educated ones, are not really confortable speaking English. It's not that they're not willing, many of them actually can't speak it or speak it badly. Of course, everything is easier with younger people. Average gross salaries for developers range from 45,000€ a year for juniors to 60,000€ for seniors. Expect to earn around 60% to 70% of that after taxes, social security and health insurance.

bowlofpetunias 12y ago

Is this new though? Any major city has seen young people doing exactly that with dreams of making it big. So we used to associate this more with artists, actors and alike. Now in certain places we can add tech start-up founders to the list. And unlike the aforementioned, these are generally people who can get a well paid job if they wanted to. It's part of being young and ambitious, and I don't see much difference between young founders begging for funding and actors going on auditions.