4 ms·

Best of luck. May I ask for a high level overview of what is involved with bootstrapping a small ISP?

maxsilver 12y ago
Sure, you can ask me anything :) The process so far has involved : - Figure out how to get access to right of ways [Completed] - Figure out how to get internet access to sell [Completed] - Figure out how much it will cost to start a CO [Mostly Completed] - Acquire a place to put a CO [Completed] - Acquire high quality, redundant backhaul [Under Construction Now] - Figure out who's willing to pay to switch away from Comcast [I have some names, but this is definitely not completed] - Beg them for money [Some have subscribed, but definitely not enough yet] There's a couple of big things that work against me: City + State taxes for right of ways are pricy. We're talking multiple thousands of dollars per mile per year, on every single mile, just in taxes. (And I'm lucky, my city still owns a lot of their own right of ways. A lot of cities just wholesale gave them away to AT&T/Comcast). Backhaul is expensive. Most ISP's are monopolies, so they can safely buy in scale. I have zero scale, so I pay full retail for everything. This is obviously very pricy. (I'm guessing I pay at least 3 times more, per Mbps, than Charter pays for backhaul, and probably 4 - 6+ times more than Comcast pays) Fiber lines are dirt cheap. Install is expensive. Easily 95% of the cost of the network is that initial installation, and it can run into past the million dollar mark even in the smallest of neighborhoods. If you want more info, let me know. I'd happily talk more about this, and provide solid numbers.
- dublinben 12y ago
  Are you targeting businesses first? I know that some local ISPs have been successful by first poaching the fraternities/sororities around a school, then expanding from there.
- digikata 12y ago
  This sounds fascinating, I'd love to hear more. Incidentally, that makes me wonder if the backhaul cost problem could be something Google could see their way to sell to local ISPs at closer to bulk rates. It aligns with the general goals of Google Fiber, while allowing Google to pressure big telecom companies with less capital outlay.
- gaadd33 12y ago
  Is backhaul more expensive than getting a big Cogent connection for like $1/Mbps? Or do places like Charter/etc pay even less than that for their paid peering connections?
  - maxsilver 12y ago
    Yes. I've never seen a quote at $1/Mbps regardless of scale. It wouldn't surprise me if speed/pricing like that existed around major network hubs (like Chicago). I'm paying $8/Mbps. If I were to afford five times more backhaul than I have now, that price eventually drops to about $3.8/Mbps. Places like Charter and Comcast pay less for their backhaul, in part because they are their backhaul, in part because they are large enough to negotiate their own peering agreements. Recently, that's swung even more in their favour. Netflix, for instance, pays Comcast money for the "privilege" of paying the costs for all of the backhaul Netflix uses over Comcasts lines. People sometimes call this "double dipping". But it's actually "triple dipping". Comcast charges subscribers money, Comcast makes Netflix buy the backhaul to Comcast, and Comcast charges Netflix again, to allow them to connect the backhaul they already bought, to Comcast's network.
    - gaadd33 12y ago
      Yeah I'm not sure the cost for the infrastructure but I've seen quotes of $1-$2/Mbps for Cogent in various datacenters (assuming a 1-2Gbps commit I think). Makes sense though, I'm sure if you had to get the fiber to your location that would easily push the price up a ton.
- nardi 12y ago
  This makes me wonder how hard it would be to create a cooperative ISP, where the users own the network. I wonder if you could crowdfund something like that easily in, say, San Francisco.
- vuldin 12y ago
  Are you in the Seattle area? Please be in the Seattle area (Comcast is the only viable thing we have in most areas).
  - maxsilver 12y ago
    No, but I wish I was. Seattle is one of my favourite places. Very expensive though. If this somehow ever becomes successful in Michigan, Seattle is the very next place I would head.

Sure, you can ask me anything :) The process so far has involved : - Figure out how to get access to right of ways [Completed] - Figure out how to get internet access to sell [Completed] - Figure out how much it will cost to start a CO [Mostly Completed] - Acquire a place to put a CO [Completed] - Acquire high quality, redundant backhaul [Under Construction Now] - Figure out who's willing to pay to switch away from Comcast [I have some names, but this is definitely not completed] - Beg them for money [Some have subscribed, but definitely not enough yet] There's a couple of big things that work against me: City + State taxes for right of ways are pricy. We're talking multiple thousands of dollars per mile per year, on every single mile, just in taxes. (And I'm lucky, my city still owns a lot of their own right of ways. A lot of cities just wholesale gave them away to AT&T/Comcast). Backhaul is expensive. Most ISP's are monopolies, so they can safely buy in scale. I have zero scale, so I pay full retail for everything. This is obviously very pricy. (I'm guessing I pay at least 3 times more, per Mbps, than Charter pays for backhaul, and probably 4 - 6+ times more than Comcast pays) Fiber lines are dirt cheap. Install is expensive. Easily 95% of the cost of the network is that initial installation, and it can run into past the million dollar mark even in the smallest of neighborhoods. If you want more info, let me know. I'd happily talk more about this, and provide solid numbers.

dublinben 12y ago
Are you targeting businesses first? I know that some local ISPs have been successful by first poaching the fraternities/sororities around a school, then expanding from there.
digikata 12y ago
This sounds fascinating, I'd love to hear more. Incidentally, that makes me wonder if the backhaul cost problem could be something Google could see their way to sell to local ISPs at closer to bulk rates. It aligns with the general goals of Google Fiber, while allowing Google to pressure big telecom companies with less capital outlay.
gaadd33 12y ago
Is backhaul more expensive than getting a big Cogent connection for like $1/Mbps? Or do places like Charter/etc pay even less than that for their paid peering connections?
- maxsilver 12y ago
  Yes. I've never seen a quote at $1/Mbps regardless of scale. It wouldn't surprise me if speed/pricing like that existed around major network hubs (like Chicago). I'm paying $8/Mbps. If I were to afford five times more backhaul than I have now, that price eventually drops to about $3.8/Mbps. Places like Charter and Comcast pay less for their backhaul, in part because they are their backhaul, in part because they are large enough to negotiate their own peering agreements. Recently, that's swung even more in their favour. Netflix, for instance, pays Comcast money for the "privilege" of paying the costs for all of the backhaul Netflix uses over Comcasts lines. People sometimes call this "double dipping". But it's actually "triple dipping". Comcast charges subscribers money, Comcast makes Netflix buy the backhaul to Comcast, and Comcast charges Netflix again, to allow them to connect the backhaul they already bought, to Comcast's network.
  - gaadd33 12y ago
    Yeah I'm not sure the cost for the infrastructure but I've seen quotes of $1-$2/Mbps for Cogent in various datacenters (assuming a 1-2Gbps commit I think). Makes sense though, I'm sure if you had to get the fiber to your location that would easily push the price up a ton.
nardi 12y ago
This makes me wonder how hard it would be to create a cooperative ISP, where the users own the network. I wonder if you could crowdfund something like that easily in, say, San Francisco.
vuldin 12y ago
Are you in the Seattle area? Please be in the Seattle area (Comcast is the only viable thing we have in most areas).
- maxsilver 12y ago
  No, but I wish I was. Seattle is one of my favourite places. Very expensive though. If this somehow ever becomes successful in Michigan, Seattle is the very next place I would head.