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Just looked briefly at Thelema. This appears to be yet another cult around a perfect, mystic founding document, like the Bible or Quran. Regardless of what that

Just looked briefly at Thelema. This appears to be yet another cult around a perfect, mystic founding document, like the Bible or Quran. Regardless of what that document contains, how can you justify originating your epistemology from a text in this way? This seems no different that any other religious ridiculousness.

violiner 13y ago
The justification, at least for me, is in the approach that Thelema as a whole takes towards religious experience, and in the experience I've had with the Book of the Law. The perspective of this particular Thelemite is that the Book of the Law is the product of one man's religious experience, and that book has been very useful in the personal and spiritual development of myself and others. I don't think the value of the book is it's provenance, whether that be human or divine. I find that it's value is in the ethics of personal liberty that it articulates and insofar as it serves as a means of my own growth. There's a phrase you'll hear sometimes in Thelema: "The method of science, the aim of religion." This might appear at first to be absurd, but if you consider religion to be the process whereby we obtain genuine and personal spiritual experiences it makes perfect sense. You experiment, you keep records, you evaluate your results and seek to have the same kinds of experiences. I think that this attitude, when it's present, is what separates Thelema apart from other religions.
- crystaln 13y ago
  As far as I'm concerned, any good is full undermined by a mission statement like "Each is expected to aspire fervently to the Great Work; to dare, with courage undaunted, to perfect that Work;" It is doctrinaire philosophy, and regardless of any benefits it may bestow on you, on the whole it is just as dangerous to thought, reason, and humanity itself as any other system which undermines rationally based systems of deriving belief. Sorry, I asked for justification and hoped for better. Christianity and Islam also help lots of people, but on the whole they are designed to erode reason and instill faith, and in doing so are net destroyers of human culture and progress.
  - violiner 13y ago
    You don't have to apologize to me - you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you, though given the circumstances that certainly isn't unexpected. Please bear in mind that the Temple of Thelema (where I assume you found the quote) is one of several Thelemic groups, and do not necessarily speak for everyone. Still I am genuinely curious as to what you find offensive about that particular statement. If you take the Great Work as the perfection of the individual (which I do) I don't see what could possibly be wrong with that. If you really think that Thelema is designed to 'erode the reason and instill faith' you are mistaken, but you can't be faulted for thinking that for a brief internet search. Any philosophy is complex, and the things that you're most likely to see first are the more sensational aspects, and those do appear superstitious. As far as justification for my epistemology I didn't offer that because it doesn't exist. Thelema is not the basis of my epistemology, my experience is. Thelema is how I describe and relate to that experience. In any case, I don't really hope to or desire to convince you - that's not particularly important. Just hoped to express myself a little more clearly, have some dialogue, and try to understand what you find offensive about the quote.
    - crystaln 13y ago
      Perhaps you can refer me to a less doctrinaire viewpoint. I read enough on that site to make it quite clear that the Great Work is the actual book they seem to worship. Regardless, this still seems rather religious, even if some sects are less so. By reinterpreting "great work" it sounds like so many rationalizations of biblical belief.
      - bencollier49 13y ago
        Argh, no! Those sorts of sites can be a bit abstruse, and the term "Great Work" refers to self-perfection. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Work "The Great Work is, before all things, the creation of man by himself, that is to say, the full and entire conquest of his faculties and his future;" How you do it doesn't matter. Thelema uses a lot of fancy language because it's Edwardian and its founder was a poet. It's best understood in historical context. The purpose of Thelema was to free post-Victorian society from the social and moral superstitions and fixations which prevented people from really being themselves. It was essentially the first stirrings of the movement which found full expression sixty years later in the "New Age". Crowley referred to it as a "New Aeon"; poetry strikes again. The essential tenet of freeing oneself from mistaken ideas, choosing a life goal and doing it, is as valuable today as it was then, but you don't have to call yourself a Thelemite to do it. To a great extent, that "meme" is now mainstream.
bencollier49 13y ago
It's worth looking into this in more detail. The Book of the Law is rather unusual in that its interpretation is left up to the individual. People also tend to miss the humour. "The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading. Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire. Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence. All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself." Thelema and Neo-Paganism in general tend towards postmodernism in their approach. They are generally extremely non-dogmatic and individualistic, and as such they attract scientific types, because they encourage exploration.
- voidz 13y ago
  I'm attracted to Discordianism and the Principia Discordia, and so I can relate. This book also contains humour and you will need to dive into your own sense of self and sense of reality to make anything of it. I don't know, maybe the overlap could be considered part of "a common mystic framework." What I appreciate most is the fact that humour is at the center, especially with Discordianism. And this is what I enjoy: mysticism but without the serious undertone, and without the demand to enforce the views upon others. And there is also "humour by proxy" when every so often you share these ideas with someone who follows "serious mysticism" and claims "you are following a satanic ideology!!!" fnord.
  - bencollier49 13y ago
    "The men who are willing by this means to become the saviours of their country shall be called the Synagogue of Satan, so as to keep themselves from the friendship of the fools who mistake names for things." :-)

violiner 13y ago

The justification, at least for me, is in the approach that Thelema as a whole takes towards religious experience, and in the experience I've had with the Book of the Law. The perspective of this particular Thelemite is that the Book of the Law is the product of one man's religious experience, and that book has been very useful in the personal and spiritual development of myself and others. I don't think the value of the book is it's provenance, whether that be human or divine. I find that it's value is in the ethics of personal liberty that it articulates and insofar as it serves as a means of my own growth. There's a phrase you'll hear sometimes in Thelema: "The method of science, the aim of religion." This might appear at first to be absurd, but if you consider religion to be the process whereby we obtain genuine and personal spiritual experiences it makes perfect sense. You experiment, you keep records, you evaluate your results and seek to have the same kinds of experiences. I think that this attitude, when it's present, is what separates Thelema apart from other religions.

crystaln 13y ago
As far as I'm concerned, any good is full undermined by a mission statement like "Each is expected to aspire fervently to the Great Work; to dare, with courage undaunted, to perfect that Work;" It is doctrinaire philosophy, and regardless of any benefits it may bestow on you, on the whole it is just as dangerous to thought, reason, and humanity itself as any other system which undermines rationally based systems of deriving belief. Sorry, I asked for justification and hoped for better. Christianity and Islam also help lots of people, but on the whole they are designed to erode reason and instill faith, and in doing so are net destroyers of human culture and progress.
- violiner 13y ago
  You don't have to apologize to me - you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you, though given the circumstances that certainly isn't unexpected. Please bear in mind that the Temple of Thelema (where I assume you found the quote) is one of several Thelemic groups, and do not necessarily speak for everyone. Still I am genuinely curious as to what you find offensive about that particular statement. If you take the Great Work as the perfection of the individual (which I do) I don't see what could possibly be wrong with that. If you really think that Thelema is designed to 'erode the reason and instill faith' you are mistaken, but you can't be faulted for thinking that for a brief internet search. Any philosophy is complex, and the things that you're most likely to see first are the more sensational aspects, and those do appear superstitious. As far as justification for my epistemology I didn't offer that because it doesn't exist. Thelema is not the basis of my epistemology, my experience is. Thelema is how I describe and relate to that experience. In any case, I don't really hope to or desire to convince you - that's not particularly important. Just hoped to express myself a little more clearly, have some dialogue, and try to understand what you find offensive about the quote.
  - crystaln 13y ago
    Perhaps you can refer me to a less doctrinaire viewpoint. I read enough on that site to make it quite clear that the Great Work is the actual book they seem to worship. Regardless, this still seems rather religious, even if some sects are less so. By reinterpreting "great work" it sounds like so many rationalizations of biblical belief.
    - bencollier49 13y ago
      Argh, no! Those sorts of sites can be a bit abstruse, and the term "Great Work" refers to self-perfection. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Work "The Great Work is, before all things, the creation of man by himself, that is to say, the full and entire conquest of his faculties and his future;" How you do it doesn't matter. Thelema uses a lot of fancy language because it's Edwardian and its founder was a poet. It's best understood in historical context. The purpose of Thelema was to free post-Victorian society from the social and moral superstitions and fixations which prevented people from really being themselves. It was essentially the first stirrings of the movement which found full expression sixty years later in the "New Age". Crowley referred to it as a "New Aeon"; poetry strikes again. The essential tenet of freeing oneself from mistaken ideas, choosing a life goal and doing it, is as valuable today as it was then, but you don't have to call yourself a Thelemite to do it. To a great extent, that "meme" is now mainstream.

bencollier49 13y ago

It's worth looking into this in more detail. The Book of the Law is rather unusual in that its interpretation is left up to the individual. People also tend to miss the humour. "The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading. Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire. Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence. All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself." Thelema and Neo-Paganism in general tend towards postmodernism in their approach. They are generally extremely non-dogmatic and individualistic, and as such they attract scientific types, because they encourage exploration.

voidz 13y ago
I'm attracted to Discordianism and the Principia Discordia, and so I can relate. This book also contains humour and you will need to dive into your own sense of self and sense of reality to make anything of it. I don't know, maybe the overlap could be considered part of "a common mystic framework." What I appreciate most is the fact that humour is at the center, especially with Discordianism. And this is what I enjoy: mysticism but without the serious undertone, and without the demand to enforce the views upon others. And there is also "humour by proxy" when every so often you share these ideas with someone who follows "serious mysticism" and claims "you are following a satanic ideology!!!" fnord.
- bencollier49 13y ago
  "The men who are willing by this means to become the saviours of their country shall be called the Synagogue of Satan, so as to keep themselves from the friendship of the fools who mistake names for things." :-)