11 ms·

Comcast can do what it does because Democrats portray the company as a problem with capitalism, while Republicans portray it as a problem with regulation. In t

Comcast can do what it does because Democrats portray the company as a problem with capitalism, while Republicans portray it as a problem with regulation. In truth, it's both. It's a problem where a company has co-opted well-meaning regulation to snuff out competition, which is a thing capitalist companies do. Meanwhile, citizens point the finger at each other instead of removing Comcast's ability to monopolize. Either the regulations that make competing as an ISP difficult need to be stripped out (my personal favorite), or the last mile needs to be public property. Either way, Comcast getting to be the only one sitting on that last-mile connection is what has given rise to its stranglehold on the internet. We need to support fixing this on a local/state level. Support smaller ISPs in their attempts to disrupt the incumbents, and support legislation that actually encourages innovation in the marketplace (even if that means striking policies from the law books).

maxsilver 12y ago
As someone who's trying to bootstrap a small, local, last-mile ISP right now, my only wish is that there were many more people that held your opinion on this matter, and were willing to back that opinion with their dollars.
- opendais 12y ago
  Where is this ISP? :) May I suggest a link in your profile?
  - maxsilver 12y ago
    Grand Rapids, Michigan. (And, if I'm ever successful and allowed to dream, Seattle would be my next target) Thanks for the suggestion, I updated my profile.
    - opendais 12y ago
      Ah, I'm thousands of miles away. Best of luck with your project!
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  I can't offer you cash (I'm in Chicago), but if you ever want free help, even with trenching, pulling fiber, long-haul wireless throws, system/network admin, email me (email in profile). I fully support all alternatives to Comcast.
- Avenger42 12y ago
  Please tell me you're building in the Houston area. I'd jump ship from AT&T in a heartbeat.
- notdonspaulding 12y ago
  Hah! I'm right there with you, attempting to do the same thing in Central IL! (Should I have acknowledged my bias?)
  - micro-ram 12y ago
    ITV-3?
    - notdonspaulding 12y ago
      Nope, that's not me. :-)
- antimatter 12y ago
  Best of luck. May I ask for a high level overview of what is involved with bootstrapping a small ISP?
  - maxsilver 12y ago
    Sure, you can ask me anything :) The process so far has involved : - Figure out how to get access to right of ways [Completed] - Figure out how to get internet access to sell [Completed] - Figure out how much it will cost to start a CO [Mostly Completed] - Acquire a place to put a CO [Completed] - Acquire high quality, redundant backhaul [Under Construction Now] - Figure out who's willing to pay to switch away from Comcast [I have some names, but this is definitely not completed] - Beg them for money [Some have subscribed, but definitely not enough yet] There's a couple of big things that work against me: City + State taxes for right of ways are pricy. We're talking multiple thousands of dollars per mile per year, on every single mile, just in taxes. (And I'm lucky, my city still owns a lot of their own right of ways. A lot of cities just wholesale gave them away to AT&T/Comcast). Backhaul is expensive. Most ISP's are monopolies, so they can safely buy in scale. I have zero scale, so I pay full retail for everything. This is obviously very pricy. (I'm guessing I pay at least 3 times more, per Mbps, than Charter pays for backhaul, and probably 4 - 6+ times more than Comcast pays) Fiber lines are dirt cheap. Install is expensive. Easily 95% of the cost of the network is that initial installation, and it can run into past the million dollar mark even in the smallest of neighborhoods. If you want more info, let me know. I'd happily talk more about this, and provide solid numbers.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      Are you targeting businesses first? I know that some local ISPs have been successful by first poaching the fraternities/sororities around a school, then expanding from there.
    - digikata 12y ago
      This sounds fascinating, I'd love to hear more. Incidentally, that makes me wonder if the backhaul cost problem could be something Google could see their way to sell to local ISPs at closer to bulk rates. It aligns with the general goals of Google Fiber, while allowing Google to pressure big telecom companies with less capital outlay.
- Aloha 12y ago
  I'm game - I worked for a major national DSL provider doing field work, a major ISP doing support, and a major telecom carrier now doing field support.
nostromo 12y ago
This is the brilliance of what Google is doing. They are making cities compete for Google Fiber. You compete by making it easier, faster, and cheaper to lay fiber. It seems to be working. Seattle's new mayor recently talked about how the city needs to make it easier to build out internet infrastructure. http://murray.seattle.gov/murray-seattle-must-be-a-national-leader-in-identifying-innovative-ways-to-make-high-speed-internet-available-and-affordable-to-anyone/ http://murray.seattle.gov/murray-seattle-must-be-a-national-... > Another possible solution includes granting internet companies access to utility poles at little or no charge, so that building more infrastructure is not cost prohibitive. > We are considering [changing policies] which make it nearly impossible for internet providers to expand existing services without an unusually high super majority of support from neighbors.
- simplemath 12y ago
  GFiber is the antidote to these parasitic bastards. They have the cash to push last-mile FTTH to every metro area in the country. I think they own the dark fiber backbone to do it too. Here's hoping that G thoroughly topples every last one of them.
  - jebblue 12y ago
    Seconded, both comments. Google has a real chance to become a dominant ISP without becoming a despicable one.
    - rpgmaker 12y ago
      Five years ago I might have agreed with you. There's no reason to trust that google (another giant private company that disabled my ability to comment on youtube or rate android apps because I dared not to want to join g+) won't pull some crap once they're in a dominant position in the ISP market. Like with many other things google saw the writing on the wall regarding how they at the behest of the ISP and looked for ways to be at least minimally prepared for the worst.
      - 12y ago
afiler 12y ago
103 years ago, the UK government nationalized the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Telephone_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Telephone_Company. Within two years of that, the US justice department managed to extract from AT&T the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment. In this, AT&T, unlike NTC, was allowed to keep ownership of its respective telephone network in exchange for interconnecting fairly with its competitors. There were fights at the municipal level too, but by that point, only a few medium-sized places like Hull in the UK, and Rochester, New York had phone companies that weren't owned by NTC or AT&T. All of this seems strikingly familiar today, except that there seem to be a lot fewer politicians willing to propose any of the real profound changes like the ones that came a century ago.
runeks 12y ago
> Either the regulations that make competing as an ISP difficult need to be stripped out [...] Which regulations are we talking about here? This seems like really low hanging fruit, but of course it probably isn't.

maxsilver 12y ago

As someone who's trying to bootstrap a small, local, last-mile ISP right now, my only wish is that there were many more people that held your opinion on this matter, and were willing to back that opinion with their dollars.

opendais 12y ago
Where is this ISP? :) May I suggest a link in your profile?
- maxsilver 12y ago
  Grand Rapids, Michigan. (And, if I'm ever successful and allowed to dream, Seattle would be my next target) Thanks for the suggestion, I updated my profile.
  - opendais 12y ago
    Ah, I'm thousands of miles away. Best of luck with your project!
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
toomuchtodo 12y ago
I can't offer you cash (I'm in Chicago), but if you ever want free help, even with trenching, pulling fiber, long-haul wireless throws, system/network admin, email me (email in profile). I fully support all alternatives to Comcast.
Avenger42 12y ago
Please tell me you're building in the Houston area. I'd jump ship from AT&T in a heartbeat.
notdonspaulding 12y ago
Hah! I'm right there with you, attempting to do the same thing in Central IL! (Should I have acknowledged my bias?)
- micro-ram 12y ago
  ITV-3?
  - notdonspaulding 12y ago
    Nope, that's not me. :-)
antimatter 12y ago
Best of luck. May I ask for a high level overview of what is involved with bootstrapping a small ISP?
- maxsilver 12y ago
  Sure, you can ask me anything :) The process so far has involved : - Figure out how to get access to right of ways [Completed] - Figure out how to get internet access to sell [Completed] - Figure out how much it will cost to start a CO [Mostly Completed] - Acquire a place to put a CO [Completed] - Acquire high quality, redundant backhaul [Under Construction Now] - Figure out who's willing to pay to switch away from Comcast [I have some names, but this is definitely not completed] - Beg them for money [Some have subscribed, but definitely not enough yet] There's a couple of big things that work against me: City + State taxes for right of ways are pricy. We're talking multiple thousands of dollars per mile per year, on every single mile, just in taxes. (And I'm lucky, my city still owns a lot of their own right of ways. A lot of cities just wholesale gave them away to AT&T/Comcast). Backhaul is expensive. Most ISP's are monopolies, so they can safely buy in scale. I have zero scale, so I pay full retail for everything. This is obviously very pricy. (I'm guessing I pay at least 3 times more, per Mbps, than Charter pays for backhaul, and probably 4 - 6+ times more than Comcast pays) Fiber lines are dirt cheap. Install is expensive. Easily 95% of the cost of the network is that initial installation, and it can run into past the million dollar mark even in the smallest of neighborhoods. If you want more info, let me know. I'd happily talk more about this, and provide solid numbers.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    Are you targeting businesses first? I know that some local ISPs have been successful by first poaching the fraternities/sororities around a school, then expanding from there.
  - digikata 12y ago
    This sounds fascinating, I'd love to hear more. Incidentally, that makes me wonder if the backhaul cost problem could be something Google could see their way to sell to local ISPs at closer to bulk rates. It aligns with the general goals of Google Fiber, while allowing Google to pressure big telecom companies with less capital outlay.
Aloha 12y ago
I'm game - I worked for a major national DSL provider doing field work, a major ISP doing support, and a major telecom carrier now doing field support.

nostromo 12y ago

This is the brilliance of what Google is doing. They are making cities compete for Google Fiber. You compete by making it easier, faster, and cheaper to lay fiber. It seems to be working. Seattle's new mayor recently talked about how the city needs to make it easier to build out internet infrastructure. http://murray.seattle.gov/murray-seattle-must-be-a-national-leader-in-identifying-innovative-ways-to-make-high-speed-internet-available-and-affordable-to-anyone/ http://murray.seattle.gov/murray-seattle-must-be-a-national-... > Another possible solution includes granting internet companies access to utility poles at little or no charge, so that building more infrastructure is not cost prohibitive. > We are considering [changing policies] which make it nearly impossible for internet providers to expand existing services without an unusually high super majority of support from neighbors.

simplemath 12y ago
GFiber is the antidote to these parasitic bastards. They have the cash to push last-mile FTTH to every metro area in the country. I think they own the dark fiber backbone to do it too. Here's hoping that G thoroughly topples every last one of them.
- jebblue 12y ago
  Seconded, both comments. Google has a real chance to become a dominant ISP without becoming a despicable one.
  - rpgmaker 12y ago
    Five years ago I might have agreed with you. There's no reason to trust that google (another giant private company that disabled my ability to comment on youtube or rate android apps because I dared not to want to join g+) won't pull some crap once they're in a dominant position in the ISP market. Like with many other things google saw the writing on the wall regarding how they at the behest of the ISP and looked for ways to be at least minimally prepared for the worst.
    - 12y ago

afiler 12y ago

103 years ago, the UK government nationalized the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Telephone_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Telephone_Company. Within two years of that, the US justice department managed to extract from AT&T the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsbury_Commitment. In this, AT&T, unlike NTC, was allowed to keep ownership of its respective telephone network in exchange for interconnecting fairly with its competitors. There were fights at the municipal level too, but by that point, only a few medium-sized places like Hull in the UK, and Rochester, New York had phone companies that weren't owned by NTC or AT&T. All of this seems strikingly familiar today, except that there seem to be a lot fewer politicians willing to propose any of the real profound changes like the ones that came a century ago.

runeks 12y ago

> Either the regulations that make competing as an ISP difficult need to be stripped out [...] Which regulations are we talking about here? This seems like really low hanging fruit, but of course it probably isn't.