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I expect them to receive a lot of resistance from federal and state governments. I have a friend that works for UPS, and the union-enforced inefficiency stories

by pvnick 12y ago

I expect them to receive a lot of resistance from federal and state governments. I have a friend that works for UPS, and the union-enforced inefficiency stories he tells me would blow your mind. It's literally the gangster behavior that unions are notorious for. And those guys are no strangers to getting politicians to bend to their will. Given a truly fair, free-market, Amazon (and the other companies the article listed) would blow traditional delivery services out of the water over the next decade, no question. Companies like UPS are just too bogged down with union bureaucracy. But that's something the delivery unions will fight tooth and nail. This war will involve just as much lobbying as innovating.

dzlobin 12y ago
I'm not disagreeing, but what would UPS/USPS/unions fight them on? Is starting a delivery service regulated in some way?
- aggronn 12y ago
  The IBT is one of the last powerful private sector unions out there. It has significant lobbying power (its the 11th largest donator to political campaigns in the US), and would join with UPS/Fedex to help resist any outside company that does not acquiesce and subject itself to the IBT. I don't know to what extent that industry is regulated, but there is a very long history of teamsters getting their way.
- smackfu 12y ago
  Not yet.
e40 12y ago
Given a truly fair, free-market The reason the unions exist in the first place is because a completely free and unregulated market, in the past, produced gross human rights violations. For example: http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/23/us-workers-were-once-massacred-fighting-for-the-protections-being-rolled-back-today/ http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/23/us-workers-were-once-massac...
- cookiecaper 12y ago
  He said "a truly fair free market" which doesn't translate to anarchy. Some regulation may be necessary. He is just positing that the current regulations are not appropriate, not that regulations and/or law should be abolished entirely. Some regulation and law is required for a market to remain free.
  - e40 12y ago
    Does anyone, anywhere believe a "truly fair free market" is anything but an ideal that could never exist? We'll find unicorns first.
    - cookiecaper 12y ago
      I don't think "truly fair" necessarily implies "perfect".
      - e40 12y ago
        "Truly fair" implies that regulation would not be needed, and that is only something that would happen in an ideal world.
        cookiecaper 12y ago
        Why does it imply regulation would not be needed? It's truly fair because appropriate regulations are in place and inappropriate regulations are not. There may still be minor flaws, but once a certain fidelity is reached, I think "truly fair" is an apropos descriptor of a system even if it isn't 100% perfect.
  - justinreeves 12y ago
    "a truly fair free market" doesn't translate to anything, because it's not attainable.
  - vacri 12y ago
    A "truly fair free market" requires perfect information on the part of all stakeholders, which is impossible to achieve.
tomasz207 12y ago
As far as I know, FedEx operates without unions. Not quite sure how that has effected the industry.
pessimizer 12y ago
>union-enforced inefficiency stories he tells me would blow your mind Vacation, breaks and a mild improvement on minimum wage? Limits to what they're expected to lift? What are these horror stories? UPS is an awful job with awful wages. Of course you could make them work harder for lower wages if you made sure they lacked representation, but I wouldn't refer to that as a fair, free market.
- phillmv 12y ago
  Man, the Amazon subcontracted and watched down to the second with no room for human discretion warehouse worker stories are bone chilling.
- pvnick 12y ago
  I'll have to ask him for specifics when I see him again because I wouldn't want to regurgitate inaccurate information, but it's not nearly as bad a job as you might think, and nobody's making near minimum wage. Everybody has hefty pension plans. The drivers tend to make more than the web developers working for startups in my area. Way more. Nobody gets a promotion based on competence. It's pure seniority. The people that are there the longest get first dibs on better positions. And if somebody can't hold their own and doesn't contribute, you can forget about letting them go. It's almost impossible to fire someone who isn't worth the union wages they're making. Now that's fine and dandy, I hope lots of folks get nice retirements after working at UPS their whole life. But Amazon is more efficient and will replace these high-wage manual laborers with robots and algorithms, and the union guys will try and use the power of government to stop them.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- hagbardgroup 12y ago
  Dunno. My uncle has worked at UPS for decades. The job treats him well. The only bad thing that happened is once he was knocked off his feet by chemical fumes due to a mislabeled container, but he turned out alright. I guess you have not seen or worked really awful jobs for really awful wages before?
amiune 12y ago
I guess we need to wait for the drones and self driving cars then.

by pvnick 12y ago

dzlobin 12y ago

I'm not disagreeing, but what would UPS/USPS/unions fight them on? Is starting a delivery service regulated in some way?

aggronn 12y ago
The IBT is one of the last powerful private sector unions out there. It has significant lobbying power (its the 11th largest donator to political campaigns in the US), and would join with UPS/Fedex to help resist any outside company that does not acquiesce and subject itself to the IBT. I don't know to what extent that industry is regulated, but there is a very long history of teamsters getting their way.
smackfu 12y ago
Not yet.

e40 12y ago

Given a truly fair, free-market The reason the unions exist in the first place is because a completely free and unregulated market, in the past, produced gross human rights violations. For example: http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/23/us-workers-were-once-massacred-fighting-for-the-protections-being-rolled-back-today/ http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/23/us-workers-were-once-massac...

cookiecaper 12y ago
He said "a truly fair free market" which doesn't translate to anarchy. Some regulation may be necessary. He is just positing that the current regulations are not appropriate, not that regulations and/or law should be abolished entirely. Some regulation and law is required for a market to remain free.
- e40 12y ago
  Does anyone, anywhere believe a "truly fair free market" is anything but an ideal that could never exist? We'll find unicorns first.
  - cookiecaper 12y ago
    I don't think "truly fair" necessarily implies "perfect".
    - e40 12y ago
      "Truly fair" implies that regulation would not be needed, and that is only something that would happen in an ideal world.
      - cookiecaper 12y ago
        Why does it imply regulation would not be needed? It's truly fair because appropriate regulations are in place and inappropriate regulations are not. There may still be minor flaws, but once a certain fidelity is reached, I think "truly fair" is an apropos descriptor of a system even if it isn't 100% perfect.
- justinreeves 12y ago
  "a truly fair free market" doesn't translate to anything, because it's not attainable.
- vacri 12y ago
  A "truly fair free market" requires perfect information on the part of all stakeholders, which is impossible to achieve.

tomasz207 12y ago

As far as I know, FedEx operates without unions. Not quite sure how that has effected the industry.

pessimizer 12y ago

>union-enforced inefficiency stories he tells me would blow your mind Vacation, breaks and a mild improvement on minimum wage? Limits to what they're expected to lift? What are these horror stories? UPS is an awful job with awful wages. Of course you could make them work harder for lower wages if you made sure they lacked representation, but I wouldn't refer to that as a fair, free market.

phillmv 12y ago
Man, the Amazon subcontracted and watched down to the second with no room for human discretion warehouse worker stories are bone chilling.
pvnick 12y ago
I'll have to ask him for specifics when I see him again because I wouldn't want to regurgitate inaccurate information, but it's not nearly as bad a job as you might think, and nobody's making near minimum wage. Everybody has hefty pension plans. The drivers tend to make more than the web developers working for startups in my area. Way more. Nobody gets a promotion based on competence. It's pure seniority. The people that are there the longest get first dibs on better positions. And if somebody can't hold their own and doesn't contribute, you can forget about letting them go. It's almost impossible to fire someone who isn't worth the union wages they're making. Now that's fine and dandy, I hope lots of folks get nice retirements after working at UPS their whole life. But Amazon is more efficient and will replace these high-wage manual laborers with robots and algorithms, and the union guys will try and use the power of government to stop them.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
hagbardgroup 12y ago
Dunno. My uncle has worked at UPS for decades. The job treats him well. The only bad thing that happened is once he was knocked off his feet by chemical fumes due to a mislabeled container, but he turned out alright. I guess you have not seen or worked really awful jobs for really awful wages before?

amiune 12y ago

I guess we need to wait for the drones and self driving cars then.