6 ms·

Why is asbestos still killing people?

101 points by mr_tyzic 12y ago

darksim905 12y ago
What a fascinating article. I think everyone in my age group should read this as a lot of people don't really know the history behind asbestos & why it's so bad. It's just not discussed.
- shirro 12y ago
  It was very topical when I grew up. Manly because there was a very poorly run mine in my country which turned out to be probably our worst industrial disaster. There were a lot of victims claiming compensation and it entered into popular culture through music such as Midnight Oil's "Blue Sky Mining Company" and books. http://www.asbestosdiseases.org.au/the-wittenoom-tragedy.html http://www.asbestosdiseases.org.au/the-wittenoom-tragedy.htm... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LDoI7H1Gc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LDoI7H1Gc The dangers of asbestos had been known for some time but it took a long time for public health to catch up and like tobacco and leaded fuel, the industry worked hard to deny the problem. I expect the risks from occupational exposure have dropped a lot with replacement products and special handling and safety gear. I have seen suggestions that the next wave of victims would be DIY home renovators.
steven2012 12y ago
Asbestos dust is certainly a terrible thing to breathe in, but I think there's a lot of over-hype on the dangers of asbestos. I worked closely with contractors last year, and they all said the same thing, that asbestos fears were largely overblown. The government and real estate agents treat it as if it's nuclear waste, but being around asbestos isn't guaranteed to give you lung cancer. It's only when you create a dust from it by grinding it, and if it gets airborne. There are main mitigation techniques that can control asbestos pretty easily. Having it in your house isn't terrible as long as you deal with it properly.
- NamTaf 12y ago
  The problem is that the layman doesn't know / have the capability to detect asbestos or properly control it. Fissionable material can be safe if you properly control it, but we don't let people play around with that. The other problem is that it's easy to accidently make dust out of otherwise 'safe' asbestos, at which point it's too late. For example, hit and break a wall for whatever reason (put a hole in an internal wall, fallen branch hitting a roof), or drop some sort of heat-resistant cooking device that breaks when it hits the floor. It's one of those things where even if you do know of the risks, the possiblity of it being accidently realised is significant. I fully acknowledge that some of the material properties of asbestos are truly amazing - its heat resistence is incredible and we'd be well served finding a safe equivalent - but on balance it is simply not enough to justify its use in applications where the layman can be exposed to it.
  - steven2012 12y ago
    I'm not saying we should continue to use it and I'm not saying that it's perfectly safe. But if you were to ask regular people about asbestos, I would wager that most of them think that if you are exposed to any sort of asbestos, you're going to get lung cancer immediately. Scaring people to the point where people are misinformed from word-of-mouth doesn't make it any safer. For example, many houses in the Bay Area have asbestos in it, so it's not like having it in your house is going to kill you. You need to deal with it intelligently, but just having asbestos in your home isn't going to kill you. And even then, unless you're breathing it in all the time, you're not automatically going to get lung cancer, just like if you get a CT scan with a radiation exposure equivalent to hundreds of X-rays, you're not automatically going to get cancer. Proper education is important. Sure, lots of people tragically got lung cancer due to heavy exposure, but some exposure won't guarantee anything bad, but it certainly feels like you will based on how people talk about it.
    - jmspring 12y ago
      Most contractors, if they know or are unsure will not touch certain jobs with a 10ft pole for fear of asbestos. In older houses in the Bay Area, likely culprits are old tile, the glue used, or old ducting. With care, most of this can be removed with little risk. However, as you point out, caution is needed and most DIYers may not think about things. The other extreme is calling in the men in bunny suits that will run multiple thousands for even small issues due to permits, precautions, and disposal.
thrownaway2424 12y ago
In California there's a large asbestos deposit near the town of Coalinga. Two of the mines were cleaned up under the EPA "superfund". The surrounding area also contains a toxic mercury mine called New Idria. The whole region is remote and favored by hunters, campers, and motorcyclists. The funny thing about this site is how polarizing it is. The EPA claims victory in cleaning up the mines, but geologists point out that tectonic activity and erosion liberate and transport millions of cubic yards of asbestos. The BLM says the area is closed, but motorcycle clubs still trespass. Some people say that the local asbestos isn't dangerous because it's fluffier/shorter/longer/curlier than others that are dangerous. Rural people say the closure is a coastal, liberal conspiracy. Complete opposite opinions are expressed in apparently respectable peer-reviewed scientific journals. I don't know what to believe. Maybe the rednecks are right, it's a perfectly good place to tear it up on your dirt bike. Or maybe it's insanely dangerous, and the uncertainty is caused by industry disinformation campaigns. Who knows.
- debt 12y ago
  That's interesting. I stopped at a McDonald's very near Coalinga* and on the take out window it read verbatim: "Chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer, or birth defects or other reproductive harm may be present in foods or beverages sold or served here. Such chemicals are also present in this area and in consumer products and other items sold, provided, and used here." And wondered why this was on window. Now I know. Still decent cheeseburger though I don't care. *https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Coalinga,+CA/McDonald's,+27513+Ward+Dr,+Kettleman+City,+CA+93239/ https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Coalinga,+CA/McDonald's,+275...
  - morkfromork 12y ago
    Pretty much every building in California has those warnings. Cars sold in California have a sticker on the driver window with that warning.
    - debt 12y ago
      Ha, that's weird, I guess I've noticed them before.
chippy1337 12y ago
This article talks about asbestos being identified as carcinogenic in the 1920's, but the ancient Greeks knew not to buy slaves from the asbestos mines.
- SixSigma 12y ago
  But I bet they didn't diagnose it as "cancer", just "will die soon"
  - vidarh 12y ago
    Are you sure? The word cancer comes from Greek - Hippocrates named it Karkinos, which was translated into the latin cancer a few hundred years later. The name explicitly comes from the appearance of a cancerous tumour.
SixSigma 12y ago
They are still building with it in Goa. When I was there the "Environment Minister" of Goa was saying it was anti-indian people in the West saying it was posion
- makomk 12y ago
  I wonder - to what extent was his opinion based on the PR campaigns a few years by the Canadian government aimed at convincing countries like India to buy their asbestos?
  - SixSigma 12y ago
    Not much, I expect; they mine it in Goa too. With my experience of Indian life, I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if the Environment Minister owned the mine.
oska 12y ago
Australia, which was a big miner and user of asbestos, has the highest per capita rate of new mesothelioma cases in the world and it is still rising. These new diagnoses are considered the 'third wave' of casualties. First wave was the miners, second wave were people who worked directly with the material, and the third wave are people with incidental exposure - DIYers, women who washed their husbands' clothes etc. [1] Bans on the use of asbestos began in Australia in 1967 and the material was finally fully banned in the country in 2003. [2] [1] http://www.theage.com.au/national/still-breathing-the-devils-dust-20130618-2ogk9.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/still-breathing-the-devils... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Australia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Australia
ercu 12y ago
I wish i wanted anything else to happen. Yesterday i thought, if anything about mesothelioma would be on top news in hn ever, as my mother diagnosed with mesothelioma stage 1 last month, however no cure exists for now unlike other cancer types with the same stage. Everyday i'm searching google if any curative treatments/clinical trials started in the last 24h. We think she has exposed to aspestos from paintings of the house wall in her village, as it was spread to use "white lime" for that purpose.
sheltgor 12y ago
At the University of Washington dorms, the older ones at least, there are still exposed pipe coverings with asbestos fibers and a big fat warning sticker saying to avoid creating dust... I imagine it'll be a nightmare when they finally tear them down.
- chiph 12y ago
  Asbestos abatement is pretty much a solved problem now. Which doesn't make it any easier or cheaper. The workers basically seal off the area with plastic sheets (tightly taped at the edges), suit up with respirators, and double-bag anything they remove. Like the sign says - as long as you leave it alone, it won't create dust. Especially if it's been painted at some time, to seal the surface. So no Frisbee in the halls..
frik 12y ago
Fibre cement is a composite building and construction material, used mainly in roofing and facade products because of its strength, durability and fire-resistance. Invented in the late 19th century by the Austrian Ludwig Hatschek. Principally he mixed 90% cement and 10% asbestos fibres with water and ran it through a cardboard machine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre_cement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre_cement Many factory workers, roofer, etc. died of cancer or will die in future :( Many houses in central Europe and elsewhere have fibre cement roofing made of asbestos. Since ca. 1990 all fibre cement shingles are 100% asbestos free.

101 points by mr_tyzic 12y ago

What a fascinating article. I think everyone in my age group should read this as a lot of people don't really know the history behind asbestos & why it's so bad. It's just not discussed.

shirro 12y ago
It was very topical when I grew up. Manly because there was a very poorly run mine in my country which turned out to be probably our worst industrial disaster. There were a lot of victims claiming compensation and it entered into popular culture through music such as Midnight Oil's "Blue Sky Mining Company" and books. http://www.asbestosdiseases.org.au/the-wittenoom-tragedy.html http://www.asbestosdiseases.org.au/the-wittenoom-tragedy.htm... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LDoI7H1Gc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3LDoI7H1Gc The dangers of asbestos had been known for some time but it took a long time for public health to catch up and like tobacco and leaded fuel, the industry worked hard to deny the problem. I expect the risks from occupational exposure have dropped a lot with replacement products and special handling and safety gear. I have seen suggestions that the next wave of victims would be DIY home renovators.

steven2012 12y ago

Asbestos dust is certainly a terrible thing to breathe in, but I think there's a lot of over-hype on the dangers of asbestos. I worked closely with contractors last year, and they all said the same thing, that asbestos fears were largely overblown. The government and real estate agents treat it as if it's nuclear waste, but being around asbestos isn't guaranteed to give you lung cancer. It's only when you create a dust from it by grinding it, and if it gets airborne. There are main mitigation techniques that can control asbestos pretty easily. Having it in your house isn't terrible as long as you deal with it properly.

NamTaf 12y ago
The problem is that the layman doesn't know / have the capability to detect asbestos or properly control it. Fissionable material can be safe if you properly control it, but we don't let people play around with that. The other problem is that it's easy to accidently make dust out of otherwise 'safe' asbestos, at which point it's too late. For example, hit and break a wall for whatever reason (put a hole in an internal wall, fallen branch hitting a roof), or drop some sort of heat-resistant cooking device that breaks when it hits the floor. It's one of those things where even if you do know of the risks, the possiblity of it being accidently realised is significant. I fully acknowledge that some of the material properties of asbestos are truly amazing - its heat resistence is incredible and we'd be well served finding a safe equivalent - but on balance it is simply not enough to justify its use in applications where the layman can be exposed to it.
- steven2012 12y ago
  I'm not saying we should continue to use it and I'm not saying that it's perfectly safe. But if you were to ask regular people about asbestos, I would wager that most of them think that if you are exposed to any sort of asbestos, you're going to get lung cancer immediately. Scaring people to the point where people are misinformed from word-of-mouth doesn't make it any safer. For example, many houses in the Bay Area have asbestos in it, so it's not like having it in your house is going to kill you. You need to deal with it intelligently, but just having asbestos in your home isn't going to kill you. And even then, unless you're breathing it in all the time, you're not automatically going to get lung cancer, just like if you get a CT scan with a radiation exposure equivalent to hundreds of X-rays, you're not automatically going to get cancer. Proper education is important. Sure, lots of people tragically got lung cancer due to heavy exposure, but some exposure won't guarantee anything bad, but it certainly feels like you will based on how people talk about it.
  - jmspring 12y ago
    Most contractors, if they know or are unsure will not touch certain jobs with a 10ft pole for fear of asbestos. In older houses in the Bay Area, likely culprits are old tile, the glue used, or old ducting. With care, most of this can be removed with little risk. However, as you point out, caution is needed and most DIYers may not think about things. The other extreme is calling in the men in bunny suits that will run multiple thousands for even small issues due to permits, precautions, and disposal.

thrownaway2424 12y ago

In California there's a large asbestos deposit near the town of Coalinga. Two of the mines were cleaned up under the EPA "superfund". The surrounding area also contains a toxic mercury mine called New Idria. The whole region is remote and favored by hunters, campers, and motorcyclists. The funny thing about this site is how polarizing it is. The EPA claims victory in cleaning up the mines, but geologists point out that tectonic activity and erosion liberate and transport millions of cubic yards of asbestos. The BLM says the area is closed, but motorcycle clubs still trespass. Some people say that the local asbestos isn't dangerous because it's fluffier/shorter/longer/curlier than others that are dangerous. Rural people say the closure is a coastal, liberal conspiracy. Complete opposite opinions are expressed in apparently respectable peer-reviewed scientific journals. I don't know what to believe. Maybe the rednecks are right, it's a perfectly good place to tear it up on your dirt bike. Or maybe it's insanely dangerous, and the uncertainty is caused by industry disinformation campaigns. Who knows.

debt 12y ago
That's interesting. I stopped at a McDonald's very near Coalinga* and on the take out window it read verbatim: "Chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer, or birth defects or other reproductive harm may be present in foods or beverages sold or served here. Such chemicals are also present in this area and in consumer products and other items sold, provided, and used here." And wondered why this was on window. Now I know. Still decent cheeseburger though I don't care. *https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Coalinga,+CA/McDonald's,+27513+Ward+Dr,+Kettleman+City,+CA+93239/ https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Coalinga,+CA/McDonald's,+275...
- morkfromork 12y ago
  Pretty much every building in California has those warnings. Cars sold in California have a sticker on the driver window with that warning.
  - debt 12y ago
    Ha, that's weird, I guess I've noticed them before.

chippy1337 12y ago

This article talks about asbestos being identified as carcinogenic in the 1920's, but the ancient Greeks knew not to buy slaves from the asbestos mines.

SixSigma 12y ago
But I bet they didn't diagnose it as "cancer", just "will die soon"
- vidarh 12y ago
  Are you sure? The word cancer comes from Greek - Hippocrates named it Karkinos, which was translated into the latin cancer a few hundred years later. The name explicitly comes from the appearance of a cancerous tumour.

SixSigma 12y ago

They are still building with it in Goa. When I was there the "Environment Minister" of Goa was saying it was anti-indian people in the West saying it was posion

makomk 12y ago
I wonder - to what extent was his opinion based on the PR campaigns a few years by the Canadian government aimed at convincing countries like India to buy their asbestos?
- SixSigma 12y ago
  Not much, I expect; they mine it in Goa too. With my experience of Indian life, I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if the Environment Minister owned the mine.

oska 12y ago

Australia, which was a big miner and user of asbestos, has the highest per capita rate of new mesothelioma cases in the world and it is still rising. These new diagnoses are considered the 'third wave' of casualties. First wave was the miners, second wave were people who worked directly with the material, and the third wave are people with incidental exposure - DIYers, women who washed their husbands' clothes etc. [1] Bans on the use of asbestos began in Australia in 1967 and the material was finally fully banned in the country in 2003. [2] [1] http://www.theage.com.au/national/still-breathing-the-devils-dust-20130618-2ogk9.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/still-breathing-the-devils... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Australia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Australia

ercu 12y ago

I wish i wanted anything else to happen. Yesterday i thought, if anything about mesothelioma would be on top news in hn ever, as my mother diagnosed with mesothelioma stage 1 last month, however no cure exists for now unlike other cancer types with the same stage. Everyday i'm searching google if any curative treatments/clinical trials started in the last 24h. We think she has exposed to aspestos from paintings of the house wall in her village, as it was spread to use "white lime" for that purpose.

sheltgor 12y ago

At the University of Washington dorms, the older ones at least, there are still exposed pipe coverings with asbestos fibers and a big fat warning sticker saying to avoid creating dust... I imagine it'll be a nightmare when they finally tear them down.

chiph 12y ago
Asbestos abatement is pretty much a solved problem now. Which doesn't make it any easier or cheaper. The workers basically seal off the area with plastic sheets (tightly taped at the edges), suit up with respirators, and double-bag anything they remove. Like the sign says - as long as you leave it alone, it won't create dust. Especially if it's been painted at some time, to seal the surface. So no Frisbee in the halls..

frik 12y ago

Fibre cement is a composite building and construction material, used mainly in roofing and facade products because of its strength, durability and fire-resistance. Invented in the late 19th century by the Austrian Ludwig Hatschek. Principally he mixed 90% cement and 10% asbestos fibres with water and ran it through a cardboard machine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre_cement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre_cement Many factory workers, roofer, etc. died of cancer or will die in future :( Many houses in central Europe and elsewhere have fibre cement roofing made of asbestos. Since ca. 1990 all fibre cement shingles are 100% asbestos free.