7 ms·

It's become obvious that laws can't stop drugs. Imagine a world where the level of convenience described here was normal, but without the bullshit. No more mon

by mabbo 13y ago

It's become obvious that laws can't stop drugs. Imagine a world where the level of convenience described here was normal, but without the bullshit. No more money wasted on police trying to stop it. No sales to minors (at least, no more than cigarettes and alcohol have now). Taxes on income by drugs dealers (Colorado is showing a hell of a windfall). Reliability and safety in quality, so that you get exactly what you expect. We might even get there soon.

jlgaddis 13y ago
> We might even get there soon. I don't think the country, as a whole, will, but I do believe the more liberal areas will get there much quicker (as we're already seeing). I live in Indiana, the only state where one cannot buy alcohol on a Sunday. I don't think marijuana is gonna be legal here anytime in the near future.
- blhack 13y ago
  Marijuana is probably going to be federally legal very soon. What's currently happening in Washington and Colorado is a good example to the rest of the world that marijuana is not the devil-drug that they thought it was. The best thing that will come out of all of this, imho, is that people will stop looking at marijuana and methamphetamine like they're the same thing. We might actually get sane drug policies, and we might end up getting people who need help (drug addicts) the help that they need, instead of just locking them in prison.
  - adamfeldman 13y ago
    The U.S. was responsible for marijuana being internationally portrayed as the "devil-drug" in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs#Rescheduling_proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_...
  - psykovsky 13y ago
    > What's currently happening in Washington and Colorado is a good example to the rest of the world that marijuana is not the devil-drug that they thought it was. The Netherlands have been showing it to the world for the last 30 or 40 years.
  - mcherm 13y ago
    > What's currently happening in Washington and Colorado is a good example to the rest of the world that marijuana is not the devil-drug that they thought it was. This raises an interesting point: it is very useful to have a diversity of government because then one can see the effects of a variety of different legal and governmental structures and learn from them. Except for stubborn stupidity. Diversity in how heath care is delivered worldwide, for instance, has delivered plenty of examples to learn from. Yet the US quite intentionally refused to learn from it when redesigning our health care system -- suggesting that a plan had learned from the experience of other countries was a sure way to kill it. I don't have any idea what to do about this sort of jingoism.
    - morgante 13y ago
      > This raises an interesting point: it is very useful to have a diversity of government because then one can see the effects of a variety of different legal and governmental structures and learn from them. Federalism at work. :)
- mikestew 13y ago
  > I live in Indiana, the only state where one cannot buy alcohol on a Sunday. I'll allow that it's been 14 years since I lived in the area, but NC and TN still had dry counties where you couldn't buy liquor at all, let alone Sundays. Born and raised in Indiana, where you could buy hard liquor in one of two places: the liquor store (duh) and the drug store. I'd love to know the origin of _that_ law. "What about the grocery." "Nah, too accessible." "Drug store?" "Well, ya know, alcohol has been known to be used for medicinal purposes. And Osco Drugs just dropped twenty grand in my campaign fund, so why not?" Warm beer? Buy it in a ton of places. Oh, you wanted it pre-chilled? Liquor store only. Not to derail the conversation, but my point being that if 80 years after the end of prohibition we still have whacky liquor laws like IN does, some places just aren't going to get to enjoy a nice bowl of Purple Kush anytime soon. Meanwhile, here in WA, I feel majorly inconvenienced because Winterlife Coop won't deliver to the Eastside.
  - bashinator 13y ago
    > I'd love to know the origin of _that_ law. During prohibition, it was still possible to get alcohol with a doctor's prescription (does that sound familiar?). So pharmacies started carrying whiskey and such to fill those prescriptions. Once prohibition ended, they just started selling it over-the-counter.
- ddoolin 13y ago
  Technically not the same, but in NC you can't buy it on Sunday before noon.
  - greedo 13y ago
    Used to be that way when I first moved to Nebraska in the mid '90s.
- 12345432143422 13y ago
  The only state? News to me, as a Minnesota resident.
Jun8 13y ago
"No sales to minors" If law enforcement cannot stop drug sale en masse, how do you propose that sale to minors will be prevented? The analogy with cigarettes and alcohol is not very apt: a lot of chain stores sell these (although some are pulling out: http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2014/02/05/cvs-to-stop-selling-tobacco-sacrificing-2-billion-in-sales-for-public-health-and-future-growth/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2014/02/05/cvs-to-...). It's clear that such outlets will not be open to drugs like heroin or MDMA.
- atom-morgan 13y ago
  Social pressure would take care of a lot of this. Imagine a Shell or Walgreens that tried selling marijuana or MDMA to minors. That wouldn't last long.
- watwut 13y ago
  You can ear a lot of money by selling drugs to masse. Much harder to get that much by selling it to minors. Incentives are different in both cases. Plus, most people do not feel like they are doing something wrong using/selling little pot. It is just illegal, not "bad". It might be different with selling to minors.
- damon_c 13y ago
  When I was a kid, it was much easier to get illegal drugs than alcohol. I assumed this was because one of them was only available to those over 21.
  - wmeredith 13y ago
    Same here. In my high school the rich kids with fake ID's drank and everyone else smoked pot.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    That's basically correct, with a bit more nuance. There's no profit in selling alcohol to kids. Not only does the law come down on you if you get caught, but they can't provide enough demand to make it worth the risk. Plus, a chunk of your clientele will get antsy about it. Illegal stuff, on the other hand, already has fully-operational structure measuring risk versus reward. The law is going to come down equally hard, so there's no increased risk, just more customers. Plus, the clients who find out are already incentivized to keep quiet. tl;dr, prohibiting something to a minority is ridiculously more effective than prohibiting something to a larger group.
smacktoward 13y ago
> We might even get there soon. For pot, sure. For cocaine? I seriously doubt it.
- swalkergibson 13y ago
  As someone whose sister just died of a heroin overdose, I hope that we will get to the point that all drugs are legal. My sister died alone in a locked bedroom because of the shame and stigma associated with her addiction and related mental illness. I have no doubt that if there was a safe place she could go to use pharmaceutical grade heroin with clean needles that she would be alive today.
  - wmeredith 13y ago
    You're probably right. One of the most interesting things about heroin is that there are no long term negative side effects other than the addiction itself. This is as opppsed to something like meth that will make your teeth fall out with regular use. All the pitfalls of heroin addiction are socioeconomic. I'm sorry for your loss.
    - swalkergibson 13y ago
      Thank you. It has been a challenging couple of months. She was also a methamphetamine user (as a bipolar person she used meth when she was depressed and heroin when she was manic) and suffered no such "meth mouth" complications. The generally accepted reason for that side effect is a failure of dental hygiene and chronic dry mouth when dosed improperly, not necessarily the drug itself. If that were the case, the thousands and thousands of people prescribed Adderall would be toothless. The major problem with the illegal "hard drug" market is that these substances are synthesized in abhorrent conditions and it is impossible to know what you are getting and in what concentration. For instance, there has been a recent rash of heroin overdoses across the country due to it having been "enhanced" with Fentanyl, an anesthetic designed for exclusive use in a closely-monitored hospital setting. It took her death for me to change my stance on all of this. She found drugs that made her feel better. Heroin, meth, MDMA, etc. are no different than Seroquel, Xanax, Prozac, or any of those psychoactive drugs.

by mabbo 13y ago

jlgaddis 13y ago

> We might even get there soon. I don't think the country, as a whole, will, but I do believe the more liberal areas will get there much quicker (as we're already seeing). I live in Indiana, the only state where one cannot buy alcohol on a Sunday. I don't think marijuana is gonna be legal here anytime in the near future.

blhack 13y ago
Marijuana is probably going to be federally legal very soon. What's currently happening in Washington and Colorado is a good example to the rest of the world that marijuana is not the devil-drug that they thought it was. The best thing that will come out of all of this, imho, is that people will stop looking at marijuana and methamphetamine like they're the same thing. We might actually get sane drug policies, and we might end up getting people who need help (drug addicts) the help that they need, instead of just locking them in prison.
- adamfeldman 13y ago
  The U.S. was responsible for marijuana being internationally portrayed as the "devil-drug" in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs#Rescheduling_proposals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_...
- psykovsky 13y ago
  > What's currently happening in Washington and Colorado is a good example to the rest of the world that marijuana is not the devil-drug that they thought it was. The Netherlands have been showing it to the world for the last 30 or 40 years.
- mcherm 13y ago
  > What's currently happening in Washington and Colorado is a good example to the rest of the world that marijuana is not the devil-drug that they thought it was. This raises an interesting point: it is very useful to have a diversity of government because then one can see the effects of a variety of different legal and governmental structures and learn from them. Except for stubborn stupidity. Diversity in how heath care is delivered worldwide, for instance, has delivered plenty of examples to learn from. Yet the US quite intentionally refused to learn from it when redesigning our health care system -- suggesting that a plan had learned from the experience of other countries was a sure way to kill it. I don't have any idea what to do about this sort of jingoism.
  - morgante 13y ago
    > This raises an interesting point: it is very useful to have a diversity of government because then one can see the effects of a variety of different legal and governmental structures and learn from them. Federalism at work. :)
mikestew 13y ago
> I live in Indiana, the only state where one cannot buy alcohol on a Sunday. I'll allow that it's been 14 years since I lived in the area, but NC and TN still had dry counties where you couldn't buy liquor at all, let alone Sundays. Born and raised in Indiana, where you could buy hard liquor in one of two places: the liquor store (duh) and the drug store. I'd love to know the origin of _that_ law. "What about the grocery." "Nah, too accessible." "Drug store?" "Well, ya know, alcohol has been known to be used for medicinal purposes. And Osco Drugs just dropped twenty grand in my campaign fund, so why not?" Warm beer? Buy it in a ton of places. Oh, you wanted it pre-chilled? Liquor store only. Not to derail the conversation, but my point being that if 80 years after the end of prohibition we still have whacky liquor laws like IN does, some places just aren't going to get to enjoy a nice bowl of Purple Kush anytime soon. Meanwhile, here in WA, I feel majorly inconvenienced because Winterlife Coop won't deliver to the Eastside.
- bashinator 13y ago
  > I'd love to know the origin of _that_ law. During prohibition, it was still possible to get alcohol with a doctor's prescription (does that sound familiar?). So pharmacies started carrying whiskey and such to fill those prescriptions. Once prohibition ended, they just started selling it over-the-counter.
ddoolin 13y ago
Technically not the same, but in NC you can't buy it on Sunday before noon.
- greedo 13y ago
  Used to be that way when I first moved to Nebraska in the mid '90s.
12345432143422 13y ago
The only state? News to me, as a Minnesota resident.

Jun8 13y ago

"No sales to minors" If law enforcement cannot stop drug sale en masse, how do you propose that sale to minors will be prevented? The analogy with cigarettes and alcohol is not very apt: a lot of chain stores sell these (although some are pulling out: http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2014/02/05/cvs-to-stop-selling-tobacco-sacrificing-2-billion-in-sales-for-public-health-and-future-growth/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2014/02/05/cvs-to-...). It's clear that such outlets will not be open to drugs like heroin or MDMA.

atom-morgan 13y ago
Social pressure would take care of a lot of this. Imagine a Shell or Walgreens that tried selling marijuana or MDMA to minors. That wouldn't last long.
watwut 13y ago
You can ear a lot of money by selling drugs to masse. Much harder to get that much by selling it to minors. Incentives are different in both cases. Plus, most people do not feel like they are doing something wrong using/selling little pot. It is just illegal, not "bad". It might be different with selling to minors.
damon_c 13y ago
When I was a kid, it was much easier to get illegal drugs than alcohol. I assumed this was because one of them was only available to those over 21.
- wmeredith 13y ago
  Same here. In my high school the rich kids with fake ID's drank and everyone else smoked pot.
- saraid216 13y ago
  That's basically correct, with a bit more nuance. There's no profit in selling alcohol to kids. Not only does the law come down on you if you get caught, but they can't provide enough demand to make it worth the risk. Plus, a chunk of your clientele will get antsy about it. Illegal stuff, on the other hand, already has fully-operational structure measuring risk versus reward. The law is going to come down equally hard, so there's no increased risk, just more customers. Plus, the clients who find out are already incentivized to keep quiet. tl;dr, prohibiting something to a minority is ridiculously more effective than prohibiting something to a larger group.

smacktoward 13y ago

> We might even get there soon. For pot, sure. For cocaine? I seriously doubt it.

swalkergibson 13y ago
As someone whose sister just died of a heroin overdose, I hope that we will get to the point that all drugs are legal. My sister died alone in a locked bedroom because of the shame and stigma associated with her addiction and related mental illness. I have no doubt that if there was a safe place she could go to use pharmaceutical grade heroin with clean needles that she would be alive today.
- wmeredith 13y ago
  You're probably right. One of the most interesting things about heroin is that there are no long term negative side effects other than the addiction itself. This is as opppsed to something like meth that will make your teeth fall out with regular use. All the pitfalls of heroin addiction are socioeconomic. I'm sorry for your loss.
  - swalkergibson 13y ago
    Thank you. It has been a challenging couple of months. She was also a methamphetamine user (as a bipolar person she used meth when she was depressed and heroin when she was manic) and suffered no such "meth mouth" complications. The generally accepted reason for that side effect is a failure of dental hygiene and chronic dry mouth when dosed improperly, not necessarily the drug itself. If that were the case, the thousands and thousands of people prescribed Adderall would be toothless. The major problem with the illegal "hard drug" market is that these substances are synthesized in abhorrent conditions and it is impossible to know what you are getting and in what concentration. For instance, there has been a recent rash of heroin overdoses across the country due to it having been "enhanced" with Fentanyl, an anesthetic designed for exclusive use in a closely-monitored hospital setting. It took her death for me to change my stance on all of this. She found drugs that made her feel better. Heroin, meth, MDMA, etc. are no different than Seroquel, Xanax, Prozac, or any of those psychoactive drugs.